Fighter jet engine deal with India to start this year: GE Aerospace's Amy Gowder

[ZeEa5KPul]

Tell. that to china
Who is still.struggling with engine tech

That hasn't been true since the mid 2010s. China had second generation DD6 single crystal turbine blades as far back as 2016

The WS-10B on the J-10C uses the third generation alloy DD9, which was display at the 2018 Zhuhai Airshow

Zhuhai 2020 was cancelled, unfortunately, just a bad time all around. But guess what happened in 2021? That's right, China dropped the fourth generation

You can imagine where we are now 2-3 years later. Probably another generation that'll go into the WS-15.
In other news, the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials has conducted a wear test on bearings that lasted 50,000 hours.

New breakthrough in China's independent research and development of aero-engine spindle bearings - China Bearing Suppliers-XRB Bearing

On October 24, 2022, the anti-fatigue life test of key components of aero-engines carried out by the Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials exceeded 50,000 hours, marking a new breakthrough in China’s high-end equipment manufacturing technology. The key component of this fatigue test is the...

www.china-bearing-manufacturer.com

 

[Ali_Baba]

Only Israel has that access for the F-35I jets.

It does not have access to the "source codes" of the F35I, it has access to an API that allows it to integrate a number of defined systems/munitions to the F35 and access to the bus itself to add components to the platform uder those API's ...

 

[Ali_Baba]

Even if GE is "only" giving 50/60/70/80/90% of the technology under TOT for the 404/414, that is technology that India does not have to spend "decades" and billions on developing for itself. It can realistically focus on the technology that GE is not transferring. The problem India need solve for, is therefore, smaller than the journey that China has had to undergo. This will allow India to catchup quicker to the rest of the world.

India will have to develop some technology for itself, it is not a total free ride - but it is getting the mother of lift-ups for sure.

This is a good deal for India, which ever way you cut it.

 

[VCheng]

It does not have access to the "source codes" of the F35I, it has access to an API that allows it to integrate a number of defined systems/munitions to the F35 and access to the bus itself to add components to the platform uder those API's ...

And that access is only for the F35Is. And not all the sub components. But enough to enable them to modify and use the jets according to their needs without completely depending on USA.

 

[DDG-80]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

@Pingle

 

[Joe Shearer]

Not only GE engines with TOT will come to India but India will get Safron engines too from France with TOT.... I think Safron engines will be used in AMCA mark 2 version.....

SAFRAN

 

[Joe Shearer]

Getting engine technology is the last hurdle in complete aero space technology...
Giant strides are being made and all started with much maligned Tejas and Dhruv helicopters
Key now is getting the 83 Tejas delivered in four or five years max

Talk to @Nilgiri about this.

Getting the technology implies getting the design and production documents.
That doesn't help to produce the system.

Production is an entirely different ball game, and involves combining production technology (the machines and the entire bill of manufacturing), manufacturing expertise (the availability of skilled technical people), predictability of the supply chain, and a market.

Getting engine technology is the first hurdle in engine manufacturing.

 

[Nilgiri]

The problem India need solve for, is therefore, smaller than the journey that China has had to undergo. This will allow India to catchup quicker to the rest of the world.

Not exactly. There was a window of time (essentially the 1980s) where the West (especially the US) helped PRC shortcut its journey knowingly given combo of Sino-soviet split (and USSR still existing especially in Reagan era), US-PRC detente especially under Deng and pre-Tianenmen (and USSR collapse).

This involved technology regarding the LM2500 gas turbine and the purchase/transfer of a number of turbofan powerplants iirc the CFM56 (with the nominal promise these were for civil aircraft use rather than RnD reverse engg like the Chinese promptly started on).

This is putting aside the journey as it has been regarding Soviet and Russian/Ukrainian technology accessible to both PRC and India from ~ 1950s to the current day. Plus the British Orpheus technology to some degree as well for India.

But your overall analysis is correct that this will be a significant introduction to Indian capabilities, though at some cost (which all can be judged only with plenty of hindsight so maybe an analysis from 2030 onwards, given the many details undisclosed and needing progression of time+evidence). But its better than India deploying scarce HR and slugging it out w.r.t why the Kaveri didn't meet requirements in the hot section.

The Kaveri project is also going to get a feedback loop from Midhani et al and capital investments related to GE 414 from the look of things.

 

[BhootPishash]

Not only GE engines with TOT will come to India but India will get Safron engines too from France with TOT.... I think Safron engines will be used in AMCA mark 2 version.....

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Take note, Nobody! Repeat, Nobody!

Going to transfer any meaningful Top Cutting Edge Technology, which they developed by spending Decades of Research & Investing Billions of Dollars.

Be it Know-Why, Know-How, Metallurgy for Jet Engines.

You have to figure out yourselves how to make your own efficient Engine.

All you will be doing is ""Screwdrivergiri" to "Critical Subsystems" imported from OEM and manufacturing "Noncritical Subsystems" that too "Designed by OEM". Without learning any Know-How & Know-why.

There is no other way out other then going in all the pain, tears & burning money with all "Risked Failures".

 

[KingQamaR]

I am always skeptical of these deals with US. Not that they are bad. I am all for it. But they usually don't achieve their stated objectives. During the famous India-US Nuclear Deal, India was promised latest civilian nuclear tech, and US also promised to build Nuclear Power plants in India. Almost 2 decades later, where do you stand? No nuclear tech was received by india no power plant was build by US.
All you got was "Hey, but it helped build confidence between US and India"

 

[hindavi swarajya]

I am always skeptical of these deals with US. Not that they are bad. I am all for it. But they usually don't achieve their stated objectives. During the famous India-US Nuclear Deal, India was promised latest civilian nuclear tech, and US also promised to build Nuclear Power plants in India. Almost 2 decades later, where do you stand? No nuclear tech was received by india no power plant was build by US.
All you got was "Hey, but it helped build confidence between US and India"

US is very stubborn when it comes to TOT. additionally their tech is expensive too compare to Russia, especially for a developing economy. Additionally our BARC is very familiar with Russia nuclear tech.

I can understand why we did not collaborate with US for Nuclear power plants.

 

[KingQamaR]

This deal will not follow through. Mark my word. And Without core engine tech and ip this deal is useless.

 

[Faceless]

Talk to @Nilgiri about this.

Getting the technology implies getting the design and production documents.
That doesn't help to produce the system.

Production is an entirely different ball game, and involves combining production technology (the machines and the entire bill of manufacturing), manufacturing expertise (the availability of skilled technical people), predictability of the supply chain, and a market.

Getting engine technology is the first hurdle in engine manufacturing.

Production is where this GE TOT deal shines.
It doesn't matter if we get the design and production documents what matters is that we get the production infrastructure.
(A far better deal than China ever had even at the height of sino Soviet split)

Even if GE was to pack up and leave tomorrow the machines that produce those engines will remain in India and our scientist can use them to produce parts for the kaveri engine

Take the MIDHANI case @DDG-80 posted for instance.
Don't you think this capability of MIDHANI which they gained by working with GE will be exploited by HAL and GTRE

Not exactly. There was a window of time (essentially the 1980s) where the West (especially the US) helped PRC shortcut its journey knowingly given combo of Sino-soviet split (and USSR still existing especially in Reagan era), US-PRC detente especially under Deng and pre-Tianenmen (and USSR collapse

The western support you are talking about was infact always available to India alongside Soviet support at the same time, infact we had far more Western support than china.
China was mostly offered just a product that they themselves had to reverse engineer compare that to us we were offered full fledged collaboration and partnership but we failed to capitalise on it

But we failed to capitalise on it barring few exceptions (Nukes and Agni 1 missiles), west Germany was fine with collaborating with us on anything we asked them for (a much better deal than the Chinese had even at the peak of Sino American romance).

Same case with France, but we again dragged out feets due to oh so precious morality, Respecting IP rights and Siloing of all the related departments.
Take helicopter engine for example we had a 70-30 workshare aggreement for Shakti engine (China would have been jumping like a Teenage girl at this deal) but we seem to be failing to capitalise on this deal with HTSE 1200,
If we had succeeded in capitalising the engine deal we would not have been looking for a collaboration for the 200kw engine of IMRH.

HAL produces LM 2500 here in India, if China had the same deal as us, they would have had a copy of LM 2500 long ago, but look at our pathetic selves, we don't even have an active marine engine program, we are not even trying to learn from LM 2500 forget reverse engineering.

 

[Faceless]

Take note, Nobody! Repeat, Nobody!

Going to transfer any meaningful Top Cutting Edge Technology, which they developed by spending Decades of Research & Investing Billions of Dollars.

Be it Know-Why, Know-How, Metallurgy for Jet Engines.

You have to figure out yourselves how to make your own efficient Engine.

All you will be doing is ""Screwdrivergiri" to "Critical Subsystems" imported from OEM and manufacturing "Noncritical Subsystems" that too "Designed by OEM". Without learning any Know-How & Know-why.

There is no other way out other then going in all the pain, tears & burning money with all "Risked Failures".

China had a far worse deal than us yet they were able to reverse engineer and make workable engines and other military technologies with far less Western cooperation.
In most of the cases they were offered a readymade western engine that they themselves had to take apart learn and reverse engineer,
No need to blame our own incompetence onto others.

Even the so called screwdrivergiri is a better deal than many ever had, so spare me the lecture of TOT.
Even a 100% TOT is useless if you don't have the brains to make use of that, we seem to expect their other party to teach us like a Baby.
Like you said nobody will give you the know how.
you will have to extract that info by hook or by crook by leveraging the current partnership you have, there is much to be learnt from even a rudimentary TOT but just like always we don't want to even try.
We want everything to be served to us on a platter.

 

[BhootPishash]

Damn.. That's what you made of that post.
Clearly you have never heard figure of speech
Here let me quote the Collins Dictionary, a figure of speech is “an expression or word that is used with a metaphorical rather than a literal meaning.
Also let me remind you this is a public forum and you are sharing your opinion with everyone on the forum.
Just because you didn't directly quote me doesn't mean I can't reply to your post.


Anyways your petty reply shows you have no counter to anything I said

It was ment not for you.

Bye!!!