Future of India's SSBN fleet

[kaku]

Bro I don't usually get along with big talkers, including Indian and Pakistani military planners and leaders. They mostly do propagate or downgrade the capabilities to the general public.

As a pinch of salt and more practical than radical, I believe that Arihant is a 1st generation sub for us and S5 SSBN is in the planning stage since 2006.

More practical - as mentioned, we need to collaborate with western countries and possibly get more advanced SSBM and SSN submarines.

We don't need SSBN for looking at pakistan, we already have much better and bigger geographical area, we wouldn't need SSBN for Pakistan

We need such SSBN and SSN to reach near the Chinese mainland safely, undetected, and patrol as needed at international waters, even far from home or whoever will be joining war against us.

Looking at arihant class it is not that capable as of now. deploying her near chinese mainland, could be risky and the probability of success would be 50-50.

It is not like you go anywhere and launch.

You launch from previous pre-surveyed "SANITIZED" launch points, for Indian Navy the launch points going to be around Chagos trench.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

It is not like you go anywhere and launch.

You launch from previous pre-surveyed "SANITIZED" launch points, for Indian Navy the launch points going to be around Chagos trench.

That depends.against whom?

If you say Pakistan than I agreed. But if you say, china than I don't.

One arihant submarines will carry 4 -8, k4 missiles.. most major cities of china located to east areas..

Practically, you want hit with more than 90% chances, than submarines need to launch missiles from south China sea.

When I said near Chinese mainlands, I meant to south China sea or .Philippine sea

 

[Oscar]

While the original intent may be to have the initial subs as testbeds and then move onto a Pakistan specific aspect - at the end with the overall first and second strike capabilities needed against Pakistan these subs are potentially overkill or rather redundant.

Their weapons too are currently best suited for China but for that the patrol areas need to be moved to places where suitable depths will be a challenge for silent running.

India doesn’t need a Delta class equivalent but what it does need is a very silent running type for survival in the eastern waters.

Eventually, it would be better served to focus on newer Akula based types for 4-5 subs with SLBMs in the ICBM class(more on the why later) and convert the older boats to more SSGN roles against Chinese(or Pakistani) ships/land targets.

As for why - think 40-50 years ahead or more.
Because not all is always “bhai bhai” in geopolitics and while it seems India has freedom to go dig into western weapon and dual use tech baskets some stuff is kept out of reach.

Because at the end threat assessments from NATO considers scenarios where impending resource conflicts will push India in conflict with nations beyond China and that is where India’s nuclear deterrence will need to think beyond one continent.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

While the original intent may be to have the initial subs as testbeds and then move onto a Pakistan specific aspect - at the end with the overall first and second strike capabilities needed against Pakistan these subs are potentially overkill or rather redundant.

Their weapons too are currently best suited for China but for that the patrol areas need to be moved to places where suitable depths will be a challenge for silent running.

India doesn’t need a Delta class equivalent but what it does need is a very silent running type for survival in the eastern waters.

Eventually, it would be better served to focus on newer Akula based types for 4-5 subs with SLBMs in the ICBM class(more on the why later) and convert the older boats to more SSGN roles against Chinese(or Pakistani) ships/land targets.

As for why - think 40-50 years ahead or more.
Because not all is always “bhai bhai” in geopolitics and while it seems India has freedom to go dig into western weapon and dual use tech baskets some stuff is kept out of reach.

Because at the end threat assessments from NATO considers scenarios where impending resource conflicts will push India in conflict with nations beyond China and that is where India’s nuclear deterrence will need to think beyond one continent.

Completely agreed just want to add my point about on last sentence.

I don't believe that India will fight a war for NATO... India will only get involved if there would chocos at our borders

 

[Guynextdoor]

Dude Calm you tits and read the article again

If you need proof for such a basic fact then you my friend are in for a very rude awakening.
Our ATV project traces its roots from the 1970s era Charlie Class and Kilo class subs with the reactor design being based off 2nd Gen Soviet reactors.

this alone is proof enough that they are technologically inferior to their western counterpart not only due to being based on Soviet design but also due to being an older design

However Both the S4 and S4* subs which use a more modern reactor and incorporate lessons learnt from the leased Akula class are infinitely better than the original INS Arihant.


You are grossly underestimating China, those MFs spend money on R&D like crazy and have been doing so for a very long time.
More importantly it is not a dick measuring contest between subs, Chinese subs being inferior or superior does not matter, what matters is how advanced their Submarine detection technology is.

Great Underwater Wall - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

How do you know the Chinese spying post at Cocos Island is not a part of this Great Underwater Wall and does not house a SOSUS like system

And your point being because nowhere am I saying otherwise.
infact you are the one suggesting that the 1st product from our "learning curve" i.e INS Arihant is infact not technologically inferior
Or are you of the opinion that your first dish is going to be just as good as the cook who taught you

Read the godamn article again, where am I saying anything otherwise.
K4 is the most technologically advanced (more than even Agni 5) and packed to the brim missile DRDO has made and it already barely fits into the VLS of Arihant Class subs, even after taking into account all the technological advancements that India has made is the missile domain in the last decade K5 can either have longer range or a MIRV warhead but not both, Unless ofcourse the VLS tubes of S4 and S4* are bigger than that of S2 and S3.


That's what the whole article is about "Future of India's SSBN fleet" remember, what are you even trying to say

And that is Exactly what I am advocating for in this article. Ughhhh what are you even trying to prove

What will be the fate of S2 and S3 is something we can debate on, I believe they will be used as training Subs, you believe they will be used as a SSGN, both arguments have their own merits, let's see what the future holds.

I don't think S2 and S3 are silent enough to work as a SSGN 800km off the cost of any sufficiently advanced navy.
US could do that because Ohio class are designed for CASD patrol which necessitates them to be more silent and stealthy than their Russian counterpart who designed their sub around the Bastion strategy

Here is a great research paper from US NAVAL
POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL, although the researcher is Highly biased and very dismissive about India and it's Naval capabilities, it's nonetheless a good read

what 'proof' do you have about 'technological capabilities?' It was not based on Charlie class, Charlie was only used for training. If you don't know even this basic fact, then maybe you shouldn't comment.

 

[Guynextdoor]

While the original intent may be to have the initial subs as testbeds and then move onto a Pakistan specific aspect - at the end with the overall first and second strike capabilities needed against Pakistan these subs are potentially overkill or rather redundant.

Their weapons too are currently best suited for China but for that the patrol areas need to be moved to places where suitable depths will be a challenge for silent running.

India doesn’t need a Delta class equivalent but what it does need is a very silent running type for survival in the eastern waters.

Eventually, it would be better served to focus on newer Akula based types for 4-5 subs with SLBMs in the ICBM class(more on the why later) and convert the older boats to more SSGN roles against Chinese(or Pakistani) ships/land targets.

As for why - think 40-50 years ahead or more.
Because not all is always “bhai bhai” in geopolitics and while it seems India has freedom to go dig into western weapon and dual use tech baskets some stuff is kept out of reach.

Because at the end threat assessments from NATO considers scenarios where impending resource conflicts will push India in conflict with nations beyond China and that is where India’s nuclear deterrence will need to think beyond one continent.

This is an SSBN. This will not patrol. During start of a war this will go to a distant place and just wait for orders to launch. The larger SSBNs - 8000T class will move to arctic and hide there so that one cannot detect it in the constantly breaking ice formations. And then fire missiles from there to whichever designated target is there. Arihanrt will probably move to areas very south (towards antarctic, or near malacca straits) and wait for orders.

The only question for Indian SSBNs is have they achieved arctic launch capabilities.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

what 'proof' do you have about 'technological capabilities?' It was not based on Charlie class, Charlie was only used for training. If you don't know even this basic fact, then maybe you shouldn't comment.

Not it's not charile class... Akula 1 , technology based.

And also charlie class submarines were not made for only patrolling...she was a decent submarine during her era to destroy someone.

India leased the submarine to get the experience and knowledge about technology.

Example - if you say, paf fighter pilots are world best, but If you asked them land a fighter plane on navy aircraft ship by tomorrow, they surely can't.

There is a word called " process and training", India has gone thru and it is the reason they can operate both, means fighter pilots can land on aircrafts carriers and navy can operate nuclear submarine...... And don't come with navy incident or mistakes, once you operate, usually it's bound to happen

 

[Guynextdoor]

Not it's not charile class... Akula 1 , technology based.

And also charlie class submarines were not made for only patrolling...she was a decent submarine during her era to destroy someone.

India leased the submarine to get the experience and knowledge about technology.

Example - if you say, paf fighter pilots are world best, but If you asked them land a fighter plane on navy aircraft ship by tomorrow, they surely can't.

There is a word called " process and training", India has gone thru and it is the reason they can operate both, means fighter pilots can land on aircrafts carriers and navy can operate nuclear submarine...... And don't come with navy incident or mistakes, once you operate, usually it's bound to happen

It's not Akula also. This is an SSBN class sub and Akulas are not.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

It's not Akula also. This is an SSBN class sub and Akulas are not.

Mig 23 to. Mig 27.... Fighter to ground attack aircrafts

The same way - technology does not mean it is just limited SSBN or SSN.... Even it can be used for SSGN also with the some modifications and improvements

Adding to that Indian technicians and crews were not allowed to enter in missiles and nuclear reactor room - when we refer to lease of charlie class submarine.....

 

[nahtanbob]

And why exactly is that, since when having a strong deterrence is not really needed, specially with a trigger happy country like Pakistan

Pakistan is big bark small bite

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Pakistan is big bark small bite

Off topic but agreed with you.
I really very disappointed with Pakistan on Israel and Palestine war.

Every day that news headlines started about Palestine and Israel things in Pakistan, but almost done nothing from past one year Except a few statements

Now even I believe that if Palestine will wipe from map, Pakistan will do nothing.... Will give a few nice statements... They are waiting someone i.e Iran etc will sacrifice their self and fight war with Israel.

 

[nahtanbob]

Off topic but agreed with you.
I really very disappointed with Pakistan on Israel and Palestine war.

Every day that news headlines started about Palestine and Israel things in Pakistan, but almost done nothing from past one year Except a few statements

Now even I believe that if Palestine will wipe from map, Pakistan will do nothing.... Will give a few nice statements... They are waiting someone i.e Iran etc will sacrifice their self and fight war with Israel.

With all the economic problems the big bark is turning into a low pitched yelp

 

[Oscar]

Completely agreed just want to add my point about on last sentence.

I don't believe that India will fight a war for NATO... India will only get involved if there would chocos at our borders

What about being in a hostile situation against a NATO country 40-50 years from now when resources are scarce and humanity is splitting at the seams?

 

[nahtanbob]

What about being in a hostile situation against a NATO country 40-50 years from now when resources are scarce and humanity is splitting at the seams?

NATO countries and India are so far apart geographically. the only way that happens is if one side can project power into the others backyard. Right now and for the foreseeable USA is the only one that can do that.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Mig 23 to. Mig 27.... Fighter to ground attack aircrafts

The same way - technology does not mean it is just limited SSBN or SSN.... Even it can be used for SSGN also with the some modifications and improvements

Adding to that Indian technicians and crews were not allowed to enter in missiles and nuclear reactor room - when we refer to lease of charlie class submarine.....

More different. SSBNs don't have stalking, patrolling, anti-ship, ASW responsibilities. they're a bomb truck with a large missile load. SSNs are faster, quiter , designed for stakling and quietly hunting.