HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[kaku]

fifth generation jets will eventually become obsolete and be replaced by sixth generation jets but the fourth generation jets will still continue to be produced.

Nothing is becoming obsolete, everything have there roles in force-mix.

 

[Bhojpuranchali]

Nothing is becoming obsolete, everything have there roles in force-mix.

The new block of F16, offered by the USA to India in the MRFA, remains on paper so, It will likely take at least 10 years before the first prototype is ready. By then, Tejas MK2 will already be in production.

 

[Justin TruDont]

Affordability isn't the factor, the Indian version of Rafales costs three times more than the F35.

Their is a difference between fly away cost and Program Acquisition costs

Indian Purchase price includes India Specific enhancement for Rafales, development of Base level Infrastructure for storage and Maintenence of Rafales , Weapons Package for Rafale which include 300 Meteor Missiles , 500 Hammer LGB Kits as well as 150 Scalp Cruise Missiles

India have already paid for Infrastructure for maintaining a fleet of 72 Rafales ,
So if we place a follow on order for 36 Rafale F4s , price will be significantly cheaper, since we won't have to pay for India Specs Enhancement and base level Infrastructure .

Even the weapons package bill could be reduced , With IAF unlikely to order any more Hammer LGB kits and Air launched Scalp

 

[Bhojpuranchali]

Their is a difference between fly away cost and Program Acquisition costs

Indian Purchase price includes India Specific enhancement for Rafales, development of Base level Infrastructure for storage and Maintenence of Rafales , Weapons Package for Rafale which include 300 Meteor Missiles , 500 Hammer LGB Kits as well as 150 Scalp Cruise Missiles

India have already paid for Infrastructure for maintaining a fleet of 72 Rafales ,
So if we place a follow on order for 36 Rafale F4s , price will be significantly cheaper, since we won't have to pay for India Specs Enhancement and base level Infrastructure .

Even the weapons package bill could be reduced , With IAF unlikely to order any more Hammer LGB kits and Air launched Scalp

Even if you exclude the additional costs mentioned, Rafales will still be more expensive than the F-35. Gripen and Eurofighter also cost more than the F-35.

 

[Archie]

Even if you exclude the additional costs mentioned, Rafales will still be more expensive than the F-35. Gripen and Eurofighter also cost more than the F-35.

I believe Eurofighter is still more expensive.

F35A has economy of scale behind it.

If you have an order book of 2500+ aircraft, then obviously your cost will be lower than say ,RAFALE with an estimate 700 aircraft Production run.

GRIPEN is off course cheaper to buy and to operate
but
It is also inferior in performance to Rafale, Eurofighter, F/A 18 Superhornet.

And it only offer slight advantages over the more cheaper LCA MK1A.

Hence it was not selected

 

[harpy1]

I expects India to induct and retain
200Tejas mark1a 2020-2050+
200Tejas mark2 2030-2060+
125 Super mki 2026-02060
125 ,mki 2000-2045
36-72 Rafale F3/5 2020-2070
200 Amca 2040-2080

 

[Bhojpuranchali]

I believe Eurofighter is still more expensive.

F35A has economy of scale behind it.

If you have an order book of 2500+ aircraft, then obviously your cost will be lower than say ,RAFALE with an estimate 700 aircraft Production run.

GRIPEN is off course cheaper to buy and to operate
but
It is also inferior in performance to Rafale, Eurofighter, F/A 18 Superhornet.

And it only offer slight advantages over the more cheaper LCA MK1A.

Hence it was not selected

Gripen is a single-engine fighter so lower overall and maintenance costs compared to twin-engine fighter jets. But, it is as advanced as the Eurofighter or Rafale, and its avionics are comparable to those found in fifth-generation fighter jets. The Tejas MK1A also features top-notch avionics and a modern design similar to the Gripen. But, at this stage, it may not be directly comparable to the Gripen because Gripen is a more mature and refined platform.

 

[Yasser76]

No country can afford to move on to a full 5th gen fighter force.

Unless they are small Nato countries which operate less than a 100 Fighter aircrafts and have a requirement for a single multi role top of the line fighters

Norway, Finland, Austria, Italy , Canada, Australia, are wealthy countries with small fighter requirements of 80-120 Fighters
They can afford to have an all 5th gen F35A fleet .

Same can't be said about UK , which believe it or not has a 67 billion USD Defence budget and intends to fly around 110 Eurofighters along with 48-72 F35A/Bs

While another major Power France will skip the 5th gen race and will continue to operate Rafale till 2045 when their 6th gen aircrafts enter service .
Infact France will receive the last of their 230+ Rafales in 2032 , when final batch of Rafale F5 is delivered

Of course no country can afford 100% 5th gen yet, it is heading that way though, the point is most countries now have a mixture, India will not even have that in 10 years.

UK

Typhoon
F-35
Tempest

US

F-22
F-35
F-16/F-15
New 6th gen

10 years from now most modern air forces will have a high mixture of 5th and possibly 6th Gen planes

 

[Yasser76]

Yasser lives in dream world

Pakistan with fifth generation fleet
He does not realise they will be fielding mostly thunders and legacy mlu f16until way past 2040
And at best a down graded cheap j31 in two squadrons
Yes few more j10 c may.come but the finance issue will always persist

The works is moving to missiles and drones as preferred first strike options not manned fighters

Fifth generation fighters will be important but not in the the huge no's because it's simply not financially feasible

Even in 2040! 70% of the combats fleets will still be mid 4th generation fighters

When I posted I knew predicatbly some of the responses would be like this, others have been sensible, grow up and take your ego out of the argument

 

[Yasser76]

If fourth-generation jets will be obsolete by 2030, why are the USA, Sweden, France and Europe still producing new blocks of F-16, Gripen, Rafales, and Eurofighter ?
And Despite potential delays, Tejas MK2 will enter production before the MRFA deal is finalized.

By 2030 all of these counrties will have 5th/6th gen in service entering service (maybe not sweden)

 

[Yasser76]

Such a bad analysis. Best line was, China and Pak move on to purely 5th gen. Dreams.

Yes, Pakistan and China will be inducting just 5th gen by then, JF-17 and J-10C production will be over

 

[Bhojpuranchali]

Yes, Pakistan and China will be inducting just 5th gen by then, JF-17 and J-10C production will be over

If fifth generation jets were truly essential, IAF would have likely purchased at least 36 of them by now. These jets are not expensive for a country like India, which is planning to procure 150 Rafales at a cost exceeding 40 billion dollars.
The order for 180 Tejas MK1A jets is also valued at around 15 billion dollars.

 

[Yasser76]

If fifth generation jets were truly essential, IAF would have likely purchased at least 36 of them by now. These jets are not expensive for a country like India, which is planning to procure 150 Rafales at a cost exceeding 40 billion dollars.
The order for 180 Tejas MK1A jets is also valued at around 15 billion dollars.

Where would you order 5th gen jets from?

US will not unless you comply to certain demands
China is out
Turkey is out
South Korea possible I guess but will need US permission

I do not think it is an issue of money, India is good on that front, just geo politics. They tried with SU-57 so the will is there

 

[harpy1]

By 2030 all of these counrties will have 5th/6th gen in service entering service (maybe not sweden)

There is no 5th generation fighter in Europe until post 2045
Check the progress of both UK led Tempest and French led FCAS both are designated sixth Generation

So come back to Kaan they have no engine for certain one prototype no Aesa radar no sensor fusion tech
This is shell only

How many more prototypes and how many flights say five thousand
Yasser that is decade of work
Assume entry ioc 2032 how long to set production how long to fill turkey order book
How long for you to negotiate a price make payments
You get my reservations

As losing Thunders no chance there staying for decades bro
Your not building anything else not for twenty year

We are realistic with expectations
Despite 80 billion defense budget likely to double in ten years we know
TEJAS IS FUTURE OF INDIA both mark one and two

Amca will.come be it later than J31 and possibly same time as Kaan and euro birds

One thing is certain both Tempest and FCAS will be within Indian reach if they need them.post 2040

India has always had fighters from UK and France

 

[Archie]

There is no 5th generation fighter in Europe until post 2045
Check the progress of both UK led Tempest and French led FCAS both are designated sixth Generation

So come back to Kaan they have no engine for certain one prototype no Aesa radar no sensor fusion tech
This is shell only

How many more prototypes and how many flights say five thousand
Yasser that is decade of work
Assume entry ioc 2032 how long to set production how long to fill turkey order book
How long for you to negotiate a price make payments
You get my reservations

As losing Thunders no chance there staying for decades bro
Your not building anything else not for twenty year

We are realistic with expectations
Despite 80 billion defense budget likely to double in ten years we know
TEJAS IS FUTURE OF INDIA both mark one and two

Amca will.come be it later than J31 and possibly same time as Kaan and euro birds

One thing is certain both Tempest and FCAS will be within Indian reach if they need them.post 2040

India has always had fighters from UK and France

If we look at IAF orders for AMCA, they have only stated requirements for 140 AMCAs
40 in MK1 configuration
100 in MK2 configuration

With a realistic induction timeline of 2040 onwards

India could begin retirement of the non upgraded Su30mkis starting 2042.

So quite likely AMCA will initially replace pre 2010 Su30mkis

Indian fighter Squadron levels are likely to hower around 32 sqds unless we finalise MRFA