I feel ashamed over the treatment of Afghan refugees: Imran Khan

[LC150]

What good have they apart from expanding their business empire in London?
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plus air punjab.....

 

[LC150]

I have nothing good to say about the Afghanis but i would ask you guys to be civil and post with courtesy and respect. I dont want to delete anyones post when so much time and effort is made putting them up but i will if i see off topic or abuse.....

afgan have brought this on them selves.. instead of accepting Pakistan's reality they continue to the same what they did in the 1950s and 1960s..

on our side we need to shoot better and do better targeted ops to avoid civil casualties to zero...

 

[Feroze]

sure...

but they need to get their house in order.. and understand non stop hostility doesnt help..

true the British drew lines that made non sense in 1947 but that was then ... they need to move on and end their endless hate of Pakistan by siding with anti muslim state like india

You are right about that! Pakistan needs to annex Afghanistan.

 

[LC150]

You are right about that! Pakistan needs to annex Afghanistan.

why would you want to rule over a unruly bunch?..

it better they sort their own problems... but need to get a better plan to deal with them.. we have to find a permenment solution..

 

[KingQamaR]

You are right about that! Pakistan needs to annex Afghanistan.

History has shown us that no good has ever come from invading Afghanistan . We Pakistanis should read a history book.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

you clearly must live under a rock.....

one word

NRO...

enjoy you alternative take on reality....

So the UK has given NROs to President Asif Ali Zardari and his tabbar along with three-times democratically elected PM Nawaz Sharif and his tabbar?

Which alternative reality are you exactly referring to, buddy?

 

[flyingorca]

sure...

but they need to get their house in order.. and understand non stop hostility doesnt help..

true the British drew lines that made non sense in 1947 but that was then ... they need to move on and end their endless hate of Pakistan by siding with anti muslim state like india

The Afghans invaded and captured disputed territories from declining Mughal empire. Now they like to complain that Pakistani territory is somehow their invader ancestors land.

 

[LC150]

The Afghans invaded and captured disputed territories from declining Mughal empire. Now they like to complain that Pakistani territory is somehow their invader ancestors land.

like I said their hate is irrational

 

[flyingorca]

Again lies. Maj adil raja is ex Pakistan Army service member. He is, was and never will be member of PTI.

Similarly General faiz hameed served his whole life in Pakistan army. Its actually lame that military can't discipline their own ranks and ultimately use lame excuses.

Its just power politics played by the top Generals to get to top seat. That's it. That is why military poking into politics is such a bad idea to begin with. They should never have desires to run the state. They should restrict themselves with the borders only.

All that power games for extensions and shaking down the entire country just for the race of COAS and then becoming defacto ruler of the state is a worst nightmare for a large country like ours. When they do that and took power of the state then they are above law and there's no accountability. They are completely immune. You can't let military general of your own country with total immunity.

Why we are even debating on such horrific idea of unaccountable military general running the show? We learned nothing from our history? Didn't you see a Chief of Army Staff of Pakistan, a drunk General Yahya, a womanizer completely ruined the country. and there was no one who could dare stop him as he was above law. He had destroyed every institution and no law can work against brute force. If you guys drool over military running the show then what if next general is like drunk COAS General Yahya or extremist General Zia? You will get Sudan or Myanmar. So we have to admit whatever happened with Pakistan with that regime change in 2021-22 was worst thing to happen with us. We fu-ked democracy and we set a precedent that governments need not to worry about nation's mandate. All they need is to lick the boots to get into power. All this because few generals are in a race to grab power. Puppets like N-league jumped into laps of the general, trampled nation's mandate and shamelessly assumed the position of a puppet in powers. Its a joke with 250 million nation.

Never said Adil Raja is PTI official, he is as much significant to PTI follower as Imrand Riza Khand and other retards who beain wash PTI followers.

When he was in army he was banday ka puttar but after retiring he turned into a snake. Can happen in any military. Btw, its PTI MNA who sell out for mere $50K.
Since Imran Khan wanted to implement Riyasat e Medina then lets bring Military in politics which was the case through out Muslim history. Not sure why PTI fanbois want to implement zionist invented democratic system.

Will provide response to rest of your post later.

 

[FuturePAF]

Name a single country that is run by military and is successful today. OR has good economy OR name a single country in G20 that is run by military directly or indirectly (like Pakistan). You won't find it. It will never happen that a military run country can become successful. Its impossible. Look around, you will see worst examples in the world being run by the military like Myanmar (A loser General just for the sake of power, ousted the democratic govt and brought the country into civil war). Look at Sudan. Another civil war because of Generals greed or lust for power.

If we don't understand basic flaw with Pakistan then we will never succeed. Military is never trained or built to run a country. The worst thing which can happen to a country is military General running the show. Because they are never meant to.

Now why General running the show is very disastrous because its very simple. They do not rule by moral authority. They rule by brute force (the army). The brute force (army) do not regard any law of the land but the command of their leader. In professional militaries, the chiefs are bound to retire within 1-2 years, so rotation keeps happening. No general should develop a lust for power so they break constitution and everything for their own power. Its disasterious for the military as well. Because there are so many deserving generals who just retire and never get the chance to become COAS. That myanmar general is now approaching 70 but is still in power. Now he can't let the power go, because then he'd face accountability. If there are politicians in power, they face accountability from elections every 4 or 5 years. But Generals NEVER face accountability because they have brute force. No judge, no police can dare write a case over them. They are above accountability and that is another fundamental flaw why military general should never be in charge of the country. See Gen Zia ruled Pakistan for a decade, the whole extremism / terrorism seeds were planted by him. He brought a madrassa revolution in the country which were actually jihadi factories. No one could stop him, no opposition, no judge, no public. That is why you don't crave for military generals to be in charge. That is a poison you need to stay away from. They have a very specific job, they should not be doing anything else.

There are military dictatorships, which have fostered booming economies, while also raising the standard of living of the population, eventually.

The East Asian tiger economies all followed such a model, even Japan is basically a one party state.

The support for IK amongst many Pakistanis is a byproduct of a desire for a more equitable rule of law. What great books has IK written in his political career, on his theory on governance, or how to manage the Afghan relationship? He hasn’t. His only claim to fame in the political domain is his ability to stand up to the system, BECAUSE the system has made that domain of battle.

If the system changed the rules to let thought leaders, pragmatic Intellectuals, with a written and well debated plan, “lifting all boats”, contest the field, then the people could get behind someone else.

But if the battle is a contest of wills, IK will endure till his last, and have the country holding its breath for years.

The best off ramp, IMHO, is to allow these political parties to have their leadership only eligible for the presidency, while their parties have to put forward pragmatic people for the PM job.

The Afghan groups and the TTP will feel emboldened fighting a military force, but changing the game; fighting their ability to operate, politically, economically, etc. through a more unified Pakistani political system and a smarter and faster hard hitting strategy could roll back the threat once and for all.

 

[Oscar]

If the system changed the rules to let thought leaders, pragmatic Intellectuals, with a written and well debated plan, “lifting all boats”, contest the field, then the people could get behind someone else.

But if the battle is a contest of wills, IK will endure till his last, and have the country holding its breath for years.

The best off ramp, IMHO, is to allow these political parties to have their leadership only eligible for the presidency, while their parties have to put forward pragmatic people for the PM job.

This is the argument that PTI supporters or for that matter N league or PPP ones(although in that case the personality cult is also enforced with likely physical harm if not worse) would not accept BUT there is a caveat there as well.

The establishment is simply so insecure about being intellectually gobsmacked by any person that they WILL NOT ALLOW anyone who is NOT A YES MAN in that PM seat.
They actually figured they could control IK not realizing he isnt exactly the smartest cookie in the shed nor someone able to be politically shrewd like Bhutto(who himself succumbed to ego). They do not want an independent mind there. They want someone they can manage, pressure, or dismiss at will.

Unless you wear a uniform with stars, carry a bureaucratic grade, or sit inside the elite circles (military, senior civil service, intelligence, landed or business oligarchy), the default programming of "how dare this junior question me" is INGRAINED in their brains.. they cannot think beyond it.

Even if they did they wont acknowledge the criticism because then you are fighting the other instinct of "dont seem incompetent" kicks in because admitting criticism risks being seen as weak, losing face, or jeopardizing career security. -which is one of the core reasons the system keeps sustaining its structure because of those programming flaws.

Is everyone programmed to it? No- plenty of exceptions but then comes the self preservation instinct: “I have too much to lose.” Pension, posting, business interests, land, contracts, family safety, social standing, future access because all of it becomes more important than doing what is right. They may privately agree with you, but publicly they will defend nonsense because dissent has a cost and conformity has rewards.

And the final instinct is the most dangerous one: “the system may be broken, but at least I know how to survive in it.” That is why reform keeps dying and not because everyone inside the establishment is evil or incapable of understanding the problem, but because too many are trained to protect hierarchy, avoid embarrassment, fear loss, and confuse obedience with stability.

 

[FuturePAF]

This is the argument that PTI supporters or for that matter N league or PPP ones(although in that case the personality cult is also enforced with likely physical harm if not worse) would not accept BUT there is a caveat there as well.

The establishment is simply so insecure about being intellectually gobsmacked by any person that they WILL NOT ALLOW anyone who is NOT A YES MAN in that PM seat.
They actually figured they could control IK not realizing he isnt exactly the smartest cookie in the shed nor someone able to be politically shrewd like Bhutto(who himself succumbed to ego). They do not want an independent mind there. They want someone they can manage, pressure, or dismiss at will.

Unless you wear a uniform with stars, carry a bureaucratic grade, or sit inside the elite circles (military, senior civil service, intelligence, landed or business oligarchy), the default programming of "how dare this junior question me" is INGRAINED in their brains.. they cannot think beyond it.

Even if they did they wont acknowledge the criticism because then you are fighting the other instinct of "dont seem incompetent" kicks in because admitting criticism risks being seen as weak, losing face, or jeopardizing career security. -which is one of the core reasons the system keeps sustaining its structure because of those programming flaws.

Is everyone programmed to it? No- plenty of exceptions but then comes the self preservation instinct: “I have too much to lose.” Pension, posting, business interests, land, contracts, family safety, social standing, future access because all of it becomes more important than doing what is right. They may privately agree with you, but publicly they will defend nonsense because dissent has a cost and conformity has rewards.

And the final instinct is the most dangerous one: “the system may be broken, but at least I know how to survive in it.” That is why reform keeps dying and not because everyone inside the establishment is evil or incapable of understanding the problem, but because too many are trained to protect hierarchy, avoid embarrassment, fear loss, and confuse obedience with stability.

Brilliantly put.

If there is to be change, it would either have to come the head honcho, or the will of the unanimous consent of the core commanders. Probably both.

To mitigate the fear of losing privilege, prestige, or property, they may need to create political SEZs, allowing the ideas of professional experts with long term written plans play out over the next 12 months, at least.

They maybe comfortable, but in a couple years, the world will probably shift back to an old norm, and their window to exploit the global spotlight to facilitate change will have past.

Frankly speaking, they make the rules in Pakistan. If they say IK can come out and only run for the presidency, as part of a grand bargain and off ramp for the nation, IK can either accept or not. In the meantime, they can test out what that government would be allow/tasked to perform now, before a release.

I have also advocated for the long term national interests. From that frame of mind, the optimal outcome would be to release IK but change the game. Save face for all involved, end this national coma, and with IK as president extract terms from Afghanistan that benefits the nation for the long term. Secure that border, tame that tiger, and lock in sustainable and growing long term interests.

 

[Oscar]

Brilliantly put.

If there is to be change, it would either have to come the head honcho, or the will of the unanimous consent of the core commanders. Probably both.

To mitigate the fear of losing privilege, prestige, or property, they may need to create political SEZs, allowing the ideas of professional experts with long term written plans play out over the next 12 months, at least.

They maybe comfortable, but in a couple years, the world will probably shift back to an old norm, and their window to exploit the global spotlight to facilitate change will have past.

Frankly speaking, they make the rules in Pakistan. If they say IK can come out and only run for the presidency, as part of a grand bargain and off ramp for the nation, IK can either accept or not. In the meantime, they can test out what that government would be allow/tasked to perform now, before a release.

I have also advocated for the long term national interests. From that frame of mind, the optimal outcome would be to release IK but change the game. Save face for all involved, end this national coma, and with IK as president extract terms from Afghanistan that benefits the nation for the long term. Secure that border, tame that tiger, and lock in sustainable and growing long term interests.

But how exactly do you propose changing the human nature problem of it and the programming I speak of?
I get the whole "what has to do be done" but HOW?
Right? You are working within a confined system.

Take the Afghan refugees - a primary problem is them bribing Nadra officials for fake ID cards which they use for all sorts of criminal activities or plain badmouthing Pakistan once they use those to leave the country and get to Europe or otherwise through illegal migration.

You can say - lets stop the corruption at NADRA - great- pull that string though and it turns out it not just corruption but coerced corruption coming from these power players who may have vested interested in this generally from personal profit.
You pull that string and you find out that the personal profit is tied both with monetary gain both in and out of Pakistan and it also involves monetary gain for someone either in or recently out of uniform with connections... and now you have hit the same system wall.