If given a choice, IAF would happily Walk Away from Tejas - Angad Singh - Defence Writer

[vayu]

You should be more worried about it becoming irrelevant or a burden

With future involving Collaborative Combat Aircraft (CCA) or "loyal wingmen," AI-enabled. 4.5 will be relavant for very long time and cheaper to operate, and use 5 gen and 6 gen for selective operations

 

[r3alist]

ie we don't rate Pakistan as a "rival

Collective Alzheimer's


Pakistan is the only nation you talk about, operation Sindy open, no?
Bahhh...

In any case Pakistan is placed such that it's closet allies will pass on benefits that India won't have, your problem is more falling behind your peers as you spend the next decade to achieve what should have been done 20 years ago

As far as security is concerned there are more than one ways to skin the cat

This is mean reversion, and it's a lowering average

Now it's just merely security absent indigenous capabilities.

 

[samsite84]

Collective Alzheimer's


Pakistan is the only nation you talk about, operation Sindy open, no?
Bahhh...

In any case Pakistan is placed such that it's closet allies will pass on benefits that India won't have, your problem is more falling behind your peers as you spend the next decade to achieve what should have been done 20 years ago



This is mean reversion, and it's a lowering average

Now it's just merely security absent indigenous capabilities.

Rival = across different metrics not just security.

Pakistan is no. 1 threat to India as far as security is concerned and 90% Indians will agree - there was a recent PEW survey and its true for both countries (consider each other no 1 threat). I don't think that's gonna change in near future so yes Operation Sindoor, is still on, and IWT is in abeyance...

And I don't compute your mean reversion point - you can't have equality in every aspect of offense or defense but you can have credible deterrence. Vis a vis China, India should focus on deterrence which I think is realistic and status quo. Also, China can't even take Taiwan, forget about taking territory in India

 

[Beijingwalker]

Also, China can't even take Taiwan, forget about taking territory in India

Capability to do something is different from willing to do something, Hong kong and Taiwan both play siginificant role in mainland China's economic development, anyone who is not a fool can see why China didn't use force on Hong kong and Taiwan.

 

[r3alist]

Pakistan is no. 1 threat to India as far as security is concerned and 90% Indians will agree - there was a recent PEW survey and its true for both countries (consider each other no 1 threat).

You have made my point here very nicely.

How is it that the national belief of Pakistan as a threat can simultaneously hold true with the idea that Pakistan is not rated.

Your actual biggest threat is China, and that is not questioned by all global strategic observations and opinions, however you state yourself Pakistan is promoted as the threat.


So this is epistemic collapse of India, where do you begin.

And I don't compute your mean reversion point

Slowly we are seeing a catch up between self perception and reality, this is reverting to the mean

 

[Beijingwalker]

Only fools want a piece of war ravaged wasteland back

With more than 70 % of Taiwan's outward investment flowing to China, the island is the PRC's major source of foreign investments (apart from Hong Kong).

Why does so much FDI from Hong Kong and Taiwan go to Mainland China?
https://www.researchgate.net/public...rom_Hong_Kong_and_Taiwan_go_to_Mainland_China

 

[samsite84]

You have made my point here very nicely.

How is it that the national belief of Pakistan as a threat can simultaneously hold true with the idea that Pakistan is not rated.

Your actual biggest threat is China, and that is not questioned by all global strategic observations and opinions, however you state yourself Pakistan is promoted as the threat.


So this is epistemic collapse of India, where do you begin.





Slowly we are seeing a catch up between self perception and reality, this is reverting to the mean

I know India is not a security state and certainly hope Pakistan doesn't think of it as one - though PA holding the reins of power might say otherwise and perhaps that is why your sole focus is security.

I have already mentioned that Pakistan is no 1 threat to India and hence rated on security. But being a rival to India on world stage - not even in the same ballpark. This is my perspective backed by data ie its base on the huge difference between population, size (land), economy, forex etc. of the two countries. Here are few things to ponder on:
1) How many patients from India travel to Pakistan for critical care and how many Pakistanis come to India?
2) What is GDP per capita (cumulative GDP we all know the story)?
3) More than GDP think about goods as a basket - I will point to automobiles - the price of car and bike in India vs. Pakistan
4) What are the inflows from tourism (per capita or size)

I can go on and on. In all these metrics and more Pakistan is far behind and so not a rival for us. On security - its no 1. You might see it differently, I see it like above (and most Indians do)

And on the mean reversion point - if you think insulting someone's IQ is gonna make your point, go ahead. In real world, its worth as much as Pakistani rupee (not very much)

 

[r3alist]

I know India is not a security state and certainly hope Pakistan doesn't think of it as one - though PA holding the reins of power might say otherwise and perhaps that is why your sole focus is security.

I have already mentioned that Pakistan is no 1 threat to India and hence rated on security. But being a rival to India on world stage - not even in the same ballpark. This is my perspective backed by data ie its base on the huge difference between population, size (land), economy, forex etc. of the two countries. Here are few things to ponder on:
1) How many patients from India travel to Pakistan for critical care and how many Pakistanis come to India?
2) What is GDP per capita (cumulative GDP we all know the story)?
3) More than GDP think about goods as a basket - I will point to automobiles - the price of car and bike in India vs. Pakistan
4) What are the inflows from tourism (per capita or size)

I can go on and on. In all these metrics and more Pakistan is far behind and so not a rival for us. On security - its no 1. You might see it differently, I see it like above (and most Indians do)

And on the mean reversion point - if you think insulting someone's IQ is gonna make your point, go ahead. In real world, its worth as much as Pakistani rupee (not very much)

Indias existence is defined by Pakistan these days, the opposite is much less true.




How about this for data points

Zero indigenous engine

Zero indigenous fighter jets

Zero regional allies


Where is this engineering capability in the important stuff?






I could go on, but staying on topic

India may already be hovering around it's maximum ability, this is on the available data, I can refresh my view if given info, but you are strategically castrated based on your lack of capabilities but significant size, your size requires you to simply be better and deliver

and if you had the actual talent and brains you would have indigenous capabilities already.

The GDP, that one source of pride always getting revised down .... some of those dollars will make their way back to the west anyway, big military expenditure. stuff the turkey then eat the turkey.

 

[samsite84]

Indias existence is defined by Pakistan these days, the opposite is much less true.




How about this for data points

Zero indigenous engine

Zero indigenous fighter jets

Zero regional allies


Where is this engineering capability in the important stuff?






I could go on, but staying on topic

India may already be hovering around it's maximum ability, this is on the available data, I can refresh my view if given info, but you are strategically castrated based on your lack of capabilities but significant size, your size requires you to simply be better and deliver

and if you had the actual talent and brains you would have indigenous capabilities already.

The GDP, that one source of pride always getting revised down .... some of those dollars will make their way back to the west anyway, big military expenditure. stuff the turkey then eat the turkey.

Ya - your assertions are not cohesive or make sense. Build a holistic case and then lets discuss. This is not worth my time/response

 

[Yasser76]

Indias existence is defined by Pakistan these days, the opposite is much less true.




How about this for data points

Zero indigenous engine

Zero indigenous fighter jets

Zero regional allies


Where is this engineering capability in the important stuff?






I could go on, but staying on topic

India may already be hovering around it's maximum ability, this is on the available data, I can refresh my view if given info, but you are strategically castrated based on your lack of capabilities but significant size, your size requires you to simply be better and deliver

and if you had the actual talent and brains you would have indigenous capabilities already.

The GDP, that one source of pride always getting revised down .... some of those dollars will make their way back to the west anyway, big military expenditure. stuff the turkey then eat the turkey.

Tejas is finished, it was finished a few years ago, this is just mainstream Indian defence media preparing everyone for the bad news. For YEARS Shiv and Vishnu were the main cheerleaders for Tejas, buying every HAL statement hook, line and sinker. Now even look at Vishnu's facial expression in the video beautifully depressed, along with any ounce of credibility he had left and it has taken Agnad to put it straight to them and their audiences, and I am certain they edited out the more blunt answers too.

Now watch as Tejas will take it's place alongside Arjun tank, the other "Game changer" that is now used by one "Training" regiment as rest of Indian army uses T-72/T-90.

Tejas will be operated by 1 or 2 show pony Sqds for parades and to show Indian made product in service.

I am even starting to doubt if anything of use came out of the project.

No designed skills as orginal team long retired and MK2/AMACA still struggling
No working radar
No working engine


Whole thing has been one epic waste of money and resources, which from an enamy perspective was ideal.

The cope we will see over the next year of so will be as bad as May 7th for these guys.

IAF will blame HAL for false promises and not delivering on time
HAL will blame IAF for changing requirements and not being patient
Modi may well try and pass the buck on Defence Minister
Defence Minster will blame HAL
HAL may well blame "elements supporting foreign interests"

The shit show and recriminations have only just started, sit back, get some popcorn and enjoy....

 

[r3alist]

Ya - your assertions are not cohesive or make sense. Build a holistic case and then lets discuss. This is not worth my time/response

You understand zero, you can now claim as below.

Zero indigenous engine

Zero indigenous fighter jet

Otherwise holistic arguments avoiding data is your internal matter.

 

[r3alist]

Tejas is finished, it was finished a few years ago, this is just mainstream Indian defence media preparing everyone for the bad news. For YEARS Shiv and Vishnu were the main cheerleaders for Tejas, buying every HAL statement hook, line and sinker. Now even look at Vishnu's facial expression in the video beautifully depressed, along with any ounce of credibility he had left and it has taken Agnad to put it straight to them and their audiences, and I am certain they edited out the more blunt answers too.

Now watch as Tejas will take it's place alongside Arjun tank, the other "Game changer" that is now used by one "Training" regiment as rest of Indian army uses T-72/T-90.

Tejas will be operated by 1 or 2 show pony Sqds for parades and to show Indian made product in service.

I am even starting to doubt if anything of use came out of the project.

No designed skills as orginal team long retired and MK2/AMACA still struggling
No working radar
No working engine


Whole thing has been one epic waste of money and resources, which from an enamy perspective was ideal.

The cope we will see over the next year of so will be as bad as May 7th for these guys.

IAF will blame HAL for false promises and not delivering on time
HAL will blame IAF for changing requirements and not being patient
Modi may well try and pass the buck on Defence Minister
Defence Minster will blame HAL
HAL may well blame "elements supporting foreign interests"

The shit show and recriminations have only just started, sit back, get some popcorn and enjoy....

Indeed, though I get the feeling, and despite the propaganda for the cheque...... Vishnu is probably decent and willing to be sane now and again, though willing to go with the propaganda


I have heard a prominent female journalist criticize India's Pakistan obsession within the media, how a day cannot go by and she has to mention Pakistan, this was in an internal panel and I guess she got comfortable and less guarded

2 days later she was pushing another Pakistan news segment.....

This is like watching otherwise smart people choose voluntary delusion and facade again and again, to your detriment

Interestingly, also indicates a lack of seriousness about India itself from within its elites, did they not notice the hundreds of j20s and j35 before?

Suddenly it's a big deal china has 6th gen, not everything else before

 

[r3alist]

if a chinese or us or UK or France member says it ,i will still respect it as they have desined a sucessfull indegenious fighter and then mocking us, as we are not still there, i will take it as feedback but comming from you and your nation who have not desinged any of there or mass produced any of these you have great prospects for standup comedy

Jf17 equivalent would be amazing for you to achieve in 10 years.

Meanwhile, put your clown make-up back on and tell another amusing joke please

 

[hussain0216]

I called this 2 years ago. The programme is dead. Just unsure now what happens to the 180 aircraft "order". Realistically this will never materialise, but is the IAF still planning on replacing older aircraft with Tejas? If os they are so f**ked.....

If anything it helps Pakistan that they keep dumping money into this programme

What's driven the program was ego
Because this was the "Indian" plane and I think the military gave up years ago, but politicians and ego drove the program and they have dumped ridiculous amounts into the Tejas when they could have started again admitting the mistakes and learning from them

AMCA risks being the same
Because the Indians have a ego problem and they don't admit defeat (see versus Pakistan 2019, China Galwan 2020, Pakistan 2025) this means their conclusions are always wrong


They don't have a China or a Turkey or even a Saudi that they can reach out to


What's left is the French and Germans or British and all they want is money and don't want to give India any real technology or support because India is a bit delusional and could be a risk to them as much as anyone else

 

[PK781]

Didn't the purchase of the French Rafale already mean that india was not confident of its tejas and amca and all that? It did not use tejas in the attack on Pakistan

And that French Rafale was already put to the test recently and was shotdown in BVR by the J10-C.

its nice to dream and work towards the goal of making own design/aircraft and achieve such capability, but that requires amazing work, good work ethics, and NO CORRUPTION

who is going to bell the cat (CORRUPTION) in poor 3rd world countries. There's already news/rumours of massive corruptions even in the Rafale deals by both Govts (french and indian) .....lots of money being made in both countries by some very corrupt peoples in high places