India and the OIC: To join or not to join?

[gangsta_rap]

I'm OIC

 

[Bear&Bull]

When was the last time OIC beat up on anybody ?

For some reason all these guys love Modi

It doesn't matter if its Modi or Gandhi or anyone else. Its the office of the PM of the world's largest democracy which runs the 4th largest economy. money is power and power is money.

 

[شَاھِین شَاہِ لَولَاک]

oic is a useless organisation anyways. the hypocrites of arab world have made sure of it. i wouldnot be surprised if they make israel a memeber in future

 

[Third eye]

Considering India has been moving to the Hindutva state and specifically targeting Islam and its muslim population as scapegoats to incite anger and support - there is no logic in wanting to be part of OIC.

That’s like a vegetarian head of household spending all their time rallying against meat, mentally and physically abusing anyone in their who eats it - ostracizing meat eaters, discriminating against them and then saying they’re considering joining a “beef lovers” facebook group because they have a meat eater in their house.

A very poor argument and example

Do the Shias, Hazaras, Pashtuns , Baloch in Pakistan die or have their mosques blown up by Christians , Jews etc of by fellow Muslims?

Iraq and Iran fought and killed each other for eight years and Muslims died on both sides.

Iraq attempted to subsume Kuwait, both Muslim nations and Muslims died on both sides

Given the number of Muslims India has, there is nothing wrong if it were in the OIC purely from the interaction with other nations POV.

Thus far, India is doing quite fine outside the OIC so nothing lost either way

 

[Nilgiri]

Considering India has been moving to the Hindutva state and specifically targeting Islam and its muslim population as scapegoats to incite anger and support - there is no logic in wanting to be part of OIC.

That’s like a vegetarian head of household spending all their time rallying against meat, mentally and physically abusing anyone in their who eats it - ostracizing meat eaters, discriminating against them and then saying they’re considering joining a “beef lovers” facebook group because they have a meat eater in their house.

Actually, it makes eminent sense in the large shield and extra cover this would afford to this power dispensation within India.

i.e How can we anti-Muslim if we are member of the OIC itself? saffron rally crowd (meathead or veggiehead): waaah waah waaah!

Very much along the same veneer some PRC members have the ole "how can we be anti-muslim" w.r.t Uighurs if all these muslim countries power dispensations (and folks under their sufficient mental sway) admire us, support us, welcome us etc etc.

i.e Once you look at the existing messaging/branding already with the temples in UAE, good relationship building with KSA, Qatar and other gulfies etc, it all makes sense. The logic exists, its just oriented to a narrow selective band, and thats enough to pass muster generally with lot of large populations.

i.e muslims as a whole have no problem with us once they "get it"....so troublemaker muslims have to be convinced or made to "get it"..."duh"! They are "specific", not "general".

You can run compare and contrast with Turks too. What is OIC to them to use as cover and shield and how these vary with various earlier and current dispensations too

Often boils down to what would Ataturk have thought of the OIC (say if it formed 40+ years before it did) vis a vis priority long term engagement with larger Turkic world ....and how post-Ataturk political dispensations (considerable variations) judged this all.

These give some indications on the nuance of Turkish establishment politics too over time....i.e relevancy in ideology vs reality as is grasped by the echelon groups vis a vis proletariat and peasantry/laypeople at whichever snapshot decades.

Some of the most anti-muslim people I've come across are certain factions within Kemalism for a reason....they identify the religion/culture as having burdened/costed the Turkish (and larger Turkic) people in various ways. Literally saw two of them (at least) bring up Nupur Sharma comments verbatim and agree with it all wholeheartedly. They are not some Hindu or India lovers, just really militant atheist-nationalist in their context and that means anti-religion for their people's dominant religion.

Then they have mirror equivalents in the ottoman-islamist-revisionist groups (whether globalist or nationalist)....who have their views of Ataturk and secularism that can vary on the scale...and can exist in extremities.

Its a stare-off till stuff spills out into the open....then you see whats the numbers are in hindsight. Its weird...most people have mostly made up their minds on this stuff in a gut feel zero sum way.

India has the size equation that dampens some factors. China is its own unique concoction of this stuff (the psyche elements get shifted around a bit maybe).

 

[Oscar]

A very poor argument and example

Do the Shias, Hazaras, Pashtuns , Baloch in Pakistan die or have their mosques blown up by Christians , Jews etc of by fellow Muslims?

Iraq and Iran fought and killed each other for eight years and Muslims died on both sides.

Iraq attempted to subsume Kuwait, both Muslim nations and Muslims died on both sides

Given the number of Muslims India has, there is nothing wrong if it were in the OIC purely from the interaction with other nations POV.

Thus far, India is doing quite fine outside the OIC so nothing lost either way

Piecemeal cherry picking - the number of people that have died in Hindu-muslim riots - Muslims being killed in Myanmar, in China purely on the basis of their religion and for political gain and so on.

However, if that makes you ok with the treatment of muslims in India today for what is pure politics and NOTHING more - and then trying to justify it by shooting tangents. Then your character to you and mine unto mine - but yes, the OIC aspect is irrelevant

 

[Oscar]

Actually, it makes eminent sense in the large shield and extra cover this would afford to this power dispensation within India.

i.e How can we anti-Muslim if we are member of the OIC itself? saffron rally crowd (meathead or veggiehead): waaah waah waaah!

Very much along the same veneer some PRC members have the ole "how can we be anti-muslim" w.r.t Uighurs if all these muslim countries power dispensations (and folks under their sufficient mental sway) admire us, support us, welcome us etc etc.

i.e Once you look at the existing messaging/branding already with the temples in UAE, good relationship building with KSA, Qatar and other gulfies etc, it all makes sense. The logic exists, its just oriented to a narrow selective band, and thats enough to pass muster generally with lot of large populations.

i.e muslims as a whole have no problem with us once they "get it"....so troublemaker muslims have to be convinced or made to "get it"..."duh"! They are "specific", not "general".

You can run compare and contrast with Turks too. What is OIC to them to use as cover and shield and how these vary with various earlier and current dispensations too

Often boils down to what would Ataturk have thought of the OIC (say if it formed 40+ years before it did) vis a vis priority long term engagement with larger Turkic world ....and how post-Ataturk political dispensations (considerable variations) judged this all.

These give some indications on the nuance of Turkish establishment politics too over time....i.e relevancy in ideology vs reality as is grasped by the echelon groups vis a vis proletariat and peasantry/laypeople at whichever snapshot decades.

Some of the most anti-muslim people I've come across are certain factions within Kemalism for a reason....they identify the religion/culture as having burdened/costed the Turkish (and larger Turkic) people in various ways. Literally saw two of them (at least) bring up Nupur Sharma comments verbatim and agree with it all wholeheartedly. They are not some Hindu or India lovers, just really militant atheist-nationalist in their context and that means anti-religion for their people's dominant religion.

Then they have mirror equivalents in the ottoman-islamist-revisionist groups (whether globalist or nationalist)....who have their views of Ataturk and secularism that can vary on the scale...and can exist in extremities.

Its a stare-off till stuff spills out into the open....then you see whats the numbers are in hindsight. Its weird...most people have mostly made up their minds on this stuff in a gut feel zero sum way.

India has the size equation that dampens some factors. China is its own unique concoction of this stuff (the psyche elements get shifted around a bit maybe).

Which comes down to the whole aspect of political gain - then the whole idea of the Ayodhyas and all other temples whose history which have no actual relationship to the majority of Indian muslims. Sure, firebrands and troublemakers exist on all fronts but at the end the muslims in India have served the purpose of bargaining chips for the congress and in return the ire of the BJP now - half accused of being Pakistani just because 10 misguided or mischievous youth have decided to wave the flag.

Many of whom have had to be more vocal in the national anthem and patriotic as any of their Hindu counterparts more and more as communal politicians or local troublemakers bear their brunt on the common man. Eventually the majority was to win out.

This covers it well and it’s a few years old.

https://m.thewire.in/article/south-...tani-scholar-asks-her-answer-may-surprise-you

P.s I share that gentleman as family whom she refers to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1422145275381141506

The question isn’t what happens in Turkey in terms of its response - to Geert Wilders or how Pakistan has openly put non-muslims as second class citizens regardless of countless cherry picked shining examples..

Yes, OIC is real politik - and frankly the GCCs overall response to Gaza is the same - religion isn’t really the factor here.

Its the aspect of India’s character with respect to what it was to be and where it is going now.

 

[Bear&Bull]

Which comes down to the whole aspect of political gain - then the whole idea of the Ayodhyas and all other temples whose history which have no actual relationship to the majority of Indian muslims. Sure, firebrands and troublemakers exist on all fronts but at the end the muslims in India have served the purpose of bargaining chips for the congress and in return the ire of the BJP now - half accused of being Pakistani just because 10 misguided or mischievous youth have decided to wave the flag.

Many of whom have had to be more vocal in the national anthem and patriotic as any of their Hindu counterparts more and more as communal politicians or local troublemakers bear their brunt on the common man. Eventually the majority was to win out.

This covers it well and it’s a few years old.

https://m.thewire.in/article/south-...tani-scholar-asks-her-answer-may-surprise-you

P.s I share that gentleman as family whom she refers to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1422145275381141506

The question isn’t what happens in Turkey in terms of its response - to Geert Wilders or how Pakistan has openly put non-muslims as second class citizens regardless of countless cherry picked shining examples..

Yes, OIC is real politik - and frankly the GCCs overall response to Gaza is the same - religion isn’t really the factor here.

Its the aspect of India’s character with respect to what it was to be and where it is going now.

I think Pakistanis take a very righteous view when it comes to India and Islam. Yet,when it comes to China the views change completely. Pakistanis vehemently oppose any India activity which is remotely perceived to be anti Muslim but China openly destroying mosques and turning them into mosques as well state-sanctioned de-Islamisation of the Uighyrs. That's why ko one takes this objection seriously.

If the argument was moral or ethical it treat all accused equally.

 

[Nilgiri]

Which comes down to the whole aspect of political gain - then the whole idea of the Ayodhyas and all other temples whose history which have no actual relationship to the majority of Indian muslims. Sure, firebrands and troublemakers exist on all fronts but at the end the muslims in India have served the purpose of bargaining chips for the congress and in return the ire of the BJP now - half accused of being Pakistani just because 10 misguided or mischievous youth have decided to wave the flag.

Many of whom have had to be more vocal in the national anthem and patriotic as any of their Hindu counterparts more and more as communal politicians or local troublemakers bear their brunt on the common man. Eventually the majority was to win out.

This covers it well and it’s a few years old.

https://m.thewire.in/article/south-...tani-scholar-asks-her-answer-may-surprise-you

P.s I share that gentleman as family whom she refers to.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1422145275381141506

The question isn’t what happens in Turkey in terms of its response - to Geert Wilders or how Pakistan has openly put non-muslims as second class citizens regardless of countless cherry picked shining examples..

Yes, OIC is real politik - and frankly the GCCs overall response to Gaza is the same - religion isn’t really the factor here.

Its the aspect of India’s character with respect to what it was to be and where it is going now.

I totally agree.

I'm just pointing out the brutes/extremists/bullies dont really need much at all in the end to (try/compel) a push on society to a certain direction.

They don't care about reality, its nuances and forming a coherent logic imbued with moral principle.

The golden rule is simply something of a "we had it too like every other culture....see its written right here" rather than something to follow and actually practice.

If someone dropped the ball on this long ago, there's little hope he finds and picks it up later in life. Age is cruel thing in end way hearts harden and double down on things.

These things affect all societies. How these are managed and mitigated over time is seen in hindsight....but too few really look at that and apply it.

Anyway later I'll expand more of what I mean in deeper level (the way I sense where this coming from, and manifested in its own intense ways in the last few centuries) in the munir thread....w.r.t the "bunker psyche". This psychology is related to every other extreme tribalist hypocrisy.

I wish it need not be so....and I think overall the human species is improving on this slowly.

But there's always a huge amount of people that disagree, are quite comfortable with it and become pawns of these mental forces, beholden to whomever can wield the largest hold of it. This phenomenon will remain with the species a very long time. I can only hope for the best.

 

[nahtanbob]

I find it difficult to deal with propositions that our foreign policy should be based on interpersonal dynamics.

They may like Modi because of his youthful appearance Or maybe they like him because he is the Prime Minister of a large economy that is growing in size. I have to assume Modi is not making promises to these Gulf Arabs that the Indian state cannot honor in the future

 

[Developereo]

oic is a useless organisation anyways. the hypocrites of arab world have made sure of it. i wouldnot be surprised if they make israel a memeber in future

OIC is neither organized nor Islamic.

I guess one of the three ain't bad.

 

[Joe Shearer]

They may like Modi because of his youthful appearance Or maybe they like him because he is the Prime Minister of a large economy that is growing in size. I have to assume Modi is not making promises to these Gulf Arabs that the Indian state cannot honor in the future

And who gave us that guarantee? More important, do we -rather, do the rulers of the gulf states - take such promises to have the same credibility as those promises made by "various political personalities" in various Indian election campaigns?

 

[nahtanbob]

And who gave us that guarantee? More important, do we -rather, do the rulers of the gulf states - take such promises to have the same credibility as those promises made by "various political personalities" in various Indian election campaigns?

promises to external parties are little bit serious unless you want to be made an example of.
Pakistan is a good example

 

[Joe Shearer]

promises to external parties are little bit serious unless you want to be made an example of.
Pakistan is a good example

A very good example.
In our case, the youthful looking One is devoted to the unsolicited sound byte, Not to carefully drafted and diplomatically honed positions.
I remain a pessimist.

 

[Guynextdoor]

India has to have a leadeership position in the affairs of the Islamic world and in securing the intersts of islamic nations around the world. OIC will be a good way for us to secure that position.