India Has Lost Air Superiority to Pakistan, No Jets Left to Fight

[Yasser76]

How they get j10 and pl. 15

Their last line of defence, just randomly puke garbage ("IMF", "loans" "growth" blah blah blah) and hope the problem goes away. This is the issue, a country like India should have a military DECADES ahead of Pakistan right now, instead of being outnumbered 2 to 1 on the AESA fighter front.....

Reason for this is, much like our Indian chum here, their forces have turned hope into a strategy....

 

[Aghor Warrior]

Money talks . U guys are not getting 5th gen because of no credit line available as Michael mentioned earlier in j35 thread.
Post no 6384 , 6398 in j 35 thread Michael mentioned .

Money is a problem for the Indian military, but not necessarily for Pakistan. If the need arises, Pakistan can obtain weapons from China on favourable terms, potentially through soft loans that it can repay gradually.

What we Indians fail to understand is that we need a military-industrial complex as capable as those of Russia or China. The Soviet Union no longer exists to supply us with weapons in exchange for fruits or food grains, as it did in the 1960s.

India has the potential to become one of the world's largest defence exporters, but we must build a strong indigenous defence industry. If we fail to develop our own turbofan engines to power our fighter jets in next 10 years, we will be at a disadvantage in a two-front war.

Two Front war may be highly unlikely, but India must be prepared for that possibility regardless.

 

[Meengla]

Money is a problem for the Indian military, but not necessarily for Pakistan. If the need arises, Pakistan can obtain weapons from China on favourable terms, potentially through soft loans that it can repay gradually.

The trust-level and the integration between the Chinese and the Pakistani Airforces is so high that China could literally lend dozens of fighter jets to Pakistan when Pakistan really needs them and get back when the tensions subside. I can't think of any other bilateral relations like that except for between Israel and America.
IIRC, the Chinese did lend some fighter jets to Pakistan during the Kargil War of 1999 or during the Indo-Pak skirmish of 2019.

 

[r3alist]

The trust-level and the integration between the Chinese and the Pakistani Airforces is so high that China could literally lend dozens of fighter jets to Pakistan when Pakistan really needs them and get back when the tensions subside. I can't think of any other bilateral relations like that except for between Israel and America.
IIRC, the Chinese did lend some fighter jets to Pakistan during the Kargil War of 1999 or during the Indo-Pak skirmish of 2019.

There is a difference between price and value

That's what sceptics cannot accept

Pakistan meets the value threshold for purchases in one way or another

 

[Michael]

What we Indians fail to understand is that we need a military-industrial complex as capable as those of Russia or China. The Soviet Union no longer exists to supply us with weapons in exchange for fruits or food grains, as it did in the 1960s.
India has the potential to become one of the world's largest defence exporters, but we must build a strong indigenous defence industry. If we fail to develop our own turbofan engines to power our fighter jets in next 10 years, we will be at a disadvantage in a two-front war.
Two Front war may be highly unlikely, but India must be prepared for that possibility regardless.

The difference between a fantasy and an ideal lies in this: when we have a good idea, take concrete steps to pursue it, and ultimately bring it to fruition, we call it an ideal. If, however, that idea remains solely in one’s mind without any actual action being taken, then it is a fantasy.

And what you have here falls into the category of a fantasy, not an ideal.

I know that you, like many other Indians, will counter my argument by citing a whole list of what you call the "pride of India’s defense industry."

There is no need for us to engage in such pointless debate. We only need to answer one question:

Among the weapons and equipment currently fielded in significant numbers by the Indian Armed Forces, how many are truly and completely indigenous?

*By "truly and completely indigenous," I mean that the weapon or piece of equipment contains no raw materials or components sourced from abroad. If the design and technology are foreign, but all raw materials and components are produced domestically, it still counts as truly and completely indigenous.

Alright—now, go ahead and try to find the answer to that question.

And by the way, "PowerPoint products"—concepts that exist only on slides—or items still in the testing phase that have not yet been officially inducted into service, do not count.

Once you’ve clarified this issue, you can then go on to discuss your goal of “building a strong indigenous defence industry.”

 

[Aghor Warrior]

The difference between a fantasy and an ideal lies in this: when we have a good idea, take concrete steps to pursue it, and ultimately bring it to fruition, we call it an ideal. If, however, that idea remains solely in one’s mind without any actual action being taken, then it is a fantasy.

And what you have here falls into the category of a fantasy, not an ideal.

I know that you, like many other Indians, will counter my argument by citing a whole list of what you call the "pride of India’s defense industry."

There is no need for us to engage in such pointless debate. We only need to answer one question:

Among the weapons and equipment currently fielded in significant numbers by the Indian Armed Forces, how many are truly and completely indigenous?

*By "truly and completely indigenous," I mean that the weapon or piece of equipment contains no raw materials or components sourced from abroad. If the design and technology are foreign, but all raw materials and components are produced domestically, it still counts as truly and completely indigenous.

Alright—now, go ahead and try to find the answer to that question.

And by the way, "PowerPoint products"—concepts that exist only on slides—or items still in the testing phase that have not yet been officially inducted into service, do not count.

Once you’ve clarified this issue, you can then go on to discuss your goal of “building a strong indigenous defence industry.”

Your argument would be more convincing if China itself met the absurd standard you have invented for India. You demand that every raw material and component of a weapon must be domestically sourced before you will acknowledge it as indigenous. Fine. Apply that standard to China, too.

How many Chinese weapons would survive your own test if we examined every semiconductor, specialised machine tool, industrial chemical, precision component and raw material in their supply chains? Or do you intend to reserve one standard for China and another for India?

India is already fielding domestically developed systems such as the Tejas fighter, Akash air-defence system and Pinaka rocket artillery, alongside domestically designed warships and numerous indigenous missiles, radars and electronic systems. These are not PowerPoint presentations. They are tangible products of Indian engineering and industrial capacity. Their shortcomings can be debated, and India's dependence on imported engines, components and materials deserves scrutiny. But pretending that none of this counts because India has not achieved total self-sufficiency is simply dishonest.

Here is what makes your argument particularly amusing: you demand that India achieve the final destination before you will acknowledge the journey. Under your logic, a country developing 80% of a system domestically has achieved nothing because the remaining 20% comes from abroad. Yet replacing that final 20% may be precisely the next stage of industrial development. You have created a definition under which progress itself becomes invisible.

 

[Michael]

Your argument would be more convincing if China itself met the absurd standard you have invented for India. You demand that every raw material and component of a weapon must be domestically sourced before you will acknowledge it as indigenous. Fine. Apply that standard to China, too.

How many Chinese weapons would survive your own test if we examined every semiconductor, specialised machine tool, industrial chemical, precision component and raw material in their supply chains? Or do you intend to reserve one standard for China and another for India?

India is already fielding domestically developed systems such as the Tejas fighter, Akash air-defence system and Pinaka rocket artillery, alongside domestically designed warships and numerous indigenous missiles, radars and electronic systems. These are not PowerPoint presentations. They are tangible products of Indian engineering and industrial capacity. Their shortcomings can be debated, and India's dependence on imported engines, components and materials deserves scrutiny. But pretending that none of this counts because India has not achieved total self-sufficiency is simply dishonest.

Here is what makes your argument particularly amusing: you demand that India achieve the final destination before you will acknowledge the journey. Under your logic, a country developing 80% of a system domestically has achieved nothing because the remaining 20% comes from abroad. Yet replacing that final 20% may be precisely the next stage of industrial development. You have created a definition under which progress itself becomes invisible.

So, you’re just a daydreaming troll.

We are talking about the 100% domestic production of a given weapons system—take, for example, your prized Arjun tank or the Tejas fighter jet... where do the raw materials and components for these come from?
As for the Rafale fighter jets you import entirely from abroad—such items are not even part of this discussion.

All of China’s main battle tanks, frontline fighter jets, and similar assets are 100% domestically manufactured. While some tanks and fighter jets previously relied on imported engines, they are now all equipped with engines produced in China.

We have never denied that the J-20 fighter jet once used the AL-31 engine; at that time, it could not be considered 100% domestically produced. But today, we have achieved that goal.

While some imported military equipment remains in service with the Chinese armed forces, the vast majority of our weaponry is now 100% domestically produced.

Feel free to name any Indian-made weapon that meets this standard. If China were to compile such a list, it would be quite extensive. You could, of course, include the INSAS rifle on that list.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Agreed. Manufacturing will be a big problem, Russia would struggle to do this herself so HAL would make the plane. Russia has only managed 20 odd SU-57s for itself and only 14 for Algeria so far (unsure if even all of these have been delivered).
Now to suddenly suggest they can transfer the line to India and make 100 seems very very optimistic, and of course we have not even gone into the issue of supply chain issues. If GE struggle with engines for Tejas, we can only assume the situation is worse in Russia. Finally lets not forget the US may well be inclined to slap additional sanctions on India in the future anyway and these deal would give them a great escuse.

I dont see IAF going for this

Not to mention Russia would depend on the Chinese IC supply chain for the most critical electronic systems. It'd make the Bharatis even more vulnerable....

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The trust-level and the integration between the Chinese and the Pakistani Airforces is so high that China could literally lend dozens of fighter jets to Pakistan when Pakistan really needs them and get back when the tensions subside. I can't think of any other bilateral relations like that except for between Israel and America.
IIRC, the Chinese did lend some fighter jets to Pakistan during the Kargil War of 1999 or during the Indo-Pak skirmish of 2019.

The Pak side is intelligent enough to understand the "Law of Duality", as mentioned in the Quran-i Kerim regarding the creation. So, the Pak MIC has entwined itself with the Turkish one....

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Their last line of defence, just randomly puke garbage ("IMF", "loans" "growth" blah blah blah) and hope the problem goes away. This is the issue, a country like India should have a military DECADES ahead of Pakistan right now, instead of being outnumbered 2 to 1 on the AESA fighter front.....

Reason for this is, much like our Indian chum here, their forces have turned hope into a strategy....

They believe in Karma! Good actions produce good results, and bad actions bad results. However, random do folks do "soul-searching" in a cold-blooded and impartial manner. Those who do reach the level of the Nefs-i Ka'mil....

Looks the PAF, as an institutional culture, understands the reality more than the IAF....