India Lucky Not To Lose More Than Four Rafales

[Yasser76]

Permit me to elaborate further.

The underlying assumption you are making though is that a military body should function through necessary transparency in its documentation of actions and a burden of visible proof that is beyond all doubt.

This context simply does not apply for ANY military body anywhere in the world.

A military's objective is to achieve military objectives. Sometimes, in fact usually, that necessitates secrecy.

I don't believe we can safely apply the parameters you wish to see in the PAF, if we wish to preserve the PAF's operational security.

I do not want them sharing irrefutable proof of every kill because, fundamentally, why should we waste and/or compromise the security of our resources/sources, whether those resources/sources are technological or human assets? I am happy to see just enough to achieve a set military (or political) objective.

As an example, if India can be: (a) coerced into establishing a no fly zone for their air force, (b) scrambling and embarrassing themselves with fictional and contradictory narratives in global media, and (c) publicly contradicting the narratives of the most powerful individual in the world (DJT), all from us claiming 6 instead of 7 or 8 kills, then that is fine. A tangible objective has already been attained and no further resources need wasting or risking in this process.

Having said all of that, we have seen in the past anyway, that Pakistan and China both use a slow-cook strategy to embarrass Indian narratives quite late on, probably after they have released 2-3 Bollywood movies claiming otherwise. Delayed infowars have some additional advantages.

Anyway I have banged on enough and I fully appreciate that some folks like more instant gratification. That's fine. Personally, I'm happy to let the enemy stew a bit more indefinitely. PAF has done its job. Politicians definitely need to answer many questions. And we should prepare for the next conflict, which will be much harder for us.

Very well said!

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Permit me to elaborate further.

The underlying assumption you are making though is that a military body should function through necessary transparency in its documentation of actions and a burden of visible proof that is beyond all doubt.

This context simply does not apply for ANY military body anywhere in the world.

A military's objective is to achieve military objectives. Sometimes, in fact usually, that necessitates secrecy.

I don't believe we can safely apply the parameters you wish to see in the PAF, if we wish to preserve the PAF's operational security.

I do not want them sharing irrefutable proof of every kill because, fundamentally, why should we waste and/or compromise the security of our resources/sources, whether those resources/sources are technological or human assets? I am happy to see just enough to achieve a set military (or political) objective.

As an example, if India can be: (a) coerced into establishing a no fly zone for their air force, (b) scrambling and embarrassing themselves with fictional and contradictory narratives in global media, and (c) publicly contradicting the narratives of the most powerful individual in the world (DJT), all from us claiming 6 instead of 7 or 8 kills, then that is fine. A tangible objective has already been attained and no further resources need wasting or risking in this process.

Having said all of that, we have seen in the past anyway, that Pakistan and China both use a slow-cook strategy to embarrass Indian narratives quite late on, probably after they have released 2-3 Bollywood movies claiming otherwise. Delayed infowars have some additional advantages.

Anyway I have banged on enough and I fully appreciate that some folks like more instant gratification. That's fine. Personally, I'm happy to let the enemy stew a bit more indefinitely. PAF has done its job. Politicians definitely need to answer many questions. And we should prepare for the next conflict, which will be much harder for us.

The PAF should maintain operational and strategic secrecy wherever necessary. It should not compromise sensitive or classified details and/or visuals to satisfy fanboys, we agree.

But once you have a public story and claims, you should stick with them otherwise it becomes unprofessional and hard to believe. This is exactly what ruined the Indians' credibility, running around like clowns panicking with new excuses.

You know what went down, make your claim, provide whatever evidence you can without compromising classified details, and let fanboys debate. Don't switch up the story constantly or get involved in mud slinging. This is how you maintain credibility and professionalism as an elite institution.

 

[El Sidd]

That's not India's luck but Pakistan's merciful restraint which counts as much as a car wash in the rain.

It's unfortunate to have such media attention but that's what the market value of 1.5bn Indians brings to the table.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

There's a fine line between questioning something and claiming about something.
For the last time I will question claims on both sides till there's clear evidence.
Indians claim about destroying a Saab-2000, I don't believe it. They said we shot down an F-16 I don't believe it. They said Chunian plus 2 other radar sites (can't recall their names) were destroyed but they were intact.


Same with Pakistani claims. 6 Jets sure I can believe that. we're missing just 2 wreckages, There's chatter in Indian spaces too. it's close enough.
S-400! now that sat image PAF showed be honest don't show anything.

All DGISPR needs to do is pay up Chinese to release high resolution images and settle this matter once for all. Chinese firm release Bholari images(paid by India). Why not use the same resource.

I'm not making new claims

almost non-sensical!

as per your rhetoric:

PAF is stupid, they dont know satellite images?!

PAF doesnt know 'what counts as a confirmed kill'?!!

right...


every body is stupid, every body wants to hide something because of 'personal gains...

what exactly are they trying to hide? can I ask...you seem to know quite a lot

 

[Master Chief]

The PAF should maintain operational and strategic secrecy wherever necessary. It should not compromise sensitive or classified details and/or visuals to satisfy fanboys, we agree.

But once you have a public story and claims, you should stick with them otherwise it becomes unprofessional and hard to believe. This is exactly what ruined the Indians' credibility, running around like clowns panicking with new excuses.

You know what went down, make your claim, provide whatever evidence you can without compromising classified details, and let fanboys debate. Don't switch up the story constantly or get involved in mud slinging. This is how you maintain credibility and professionalism as an elite institution.

That's a fair point, very well explained and elaborated on.

However, who is to say we were actually in a position to unequivocally confirm the 7th kill 2 months back?

It is entirely plausible that additional information is now known that was not available before when Aurangzeb made official claims.

In any event, as far as I know, there is no official statement of a 7th kill and there probably won't be until the medal ceremony or whatever it is someone has planned. Warnes is highly respected of course in this field but he is not an official of the PAF. His "chatter" does carry more weight than that of most others. So if PAF has released some additional claim by this non-official diffusion, I really don't think it is "damaging" to the institution as many seem to be claiming.

I.e. it is not complete fiction that is now being reversed or overturned, which would have been a real problem. On the contrary, new details are simply being added to an established narrative.

 

[mythbuster]

Permit me to elaborate further.

The underlying assumption you are making though is that a military body should function through necessary transparency in its documentation of actions and a burden of visible proof that is beyond all doubt.

This context simply does not apply for ANY military body anywhere in the world.

A military's objective is to achieve military objectives. Sometimes, in fact usually, that necessitates secrecy.

I don't believe we can safely apply the parameters you wish to see in the PAF, if we wish to preserve the PAF's operational security.

I do not want them sharing irrefutable proof of every kill because, fundamentally, why should we waste and/or compromise the security of our resources/sources, whether those resources/sources are technological or human assets? I am happy to see just enough to achieve a set military (or political) objective.

As an example, if India can be: (a) coerced into establishing a no fly zone for their air force, (b) scrambling and embarrassing themselves with fictional and contradictory narratives in global media, and (c) publicly contradicting the narratives of the most powerful individual in the world (DJT), all from us claiming 6 instead of 7 or 8 kills, then that is fine. A tangible objective has already been attained and no further resources need wasting or risking in this process.

Having said all of that, we have seen in the past anyway, that Pakistan and China both use a slow-cook strategy to embarrass Indian narratives quite late on, probably after they have released 2-3 Bollywood movies claiming otherwise. Delayed infowars have some additional advantages.

Anyway I have banged on enough and I fully appreciate that some folks like more instant gratification. That's fine. Personally, I'm happy to let the enemy stew a bit more indefinitely. PAF has done its job. Politicians definitely need to answer many questions. And we should prepare for the next conflict, which will be much harder for us.

Succinct rebuttal... cheers

 

[Foinikas]

Highly reputable aviation journalist and Editor of world renowned military aviation magazine AirForces Monthly reveals the bitter truth that the Indian AirForce and Indian military and civilian leadership have been desparate to cover up for last two months.

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I don't understand why the Indians don't just take videos of their Rafales inside the hangars to prove they didn't lose any. This is becoming annoying. They won't go and say "We'll prove you're lying,so here are all the Rafale numbered,we didn't lose any".

But they insist on not saying anything.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Dassault is now regretting selling Rafales to India. French are scrambling to create lies and rumours.

Dassault Aviation on Tuesday denied its CEO Eric Trappier made any "operational or technical" comments regarding any loss of Rafale during Op Sindoor.

"In response to certain press reports quoting Dassault Aviation Chairman & CEO, Eric Trappier, about the Sindoor operation, Dassault Aviation formally denies Eric Trappier has made any operational or technical comments regarding the use of Rafale in this operation," Dassault said in a statement Tuesday. Earlier, a French website had quoted him in an interview saying there was "loss of one aircraft, without enemy contact, due to a technical failure at high altitude, which is under investigation".

Indians were trying to suggest that there was a technical fault that resulted in the loss of the planes. Dassault 'shot that down' quickly.

 

[BonPlan]

Take it as it pleases you. PAF’s official claim is 6 shot down

Yes, and russia spoke of hundreds of Tiger MBT destroyed during 1943 Kursk battle.
It was false.
here sole evidence : one on ground. We are waiting the evidences for the others.

 

[Toxic]

Yes, and russia spoke of hundreds of Tiger MBT destroyed during Kursk battle.
It was false.
here sole evidence : one on ground. We are waiting the evidences for the others.

Man aren't you tired? Such a large dosage of cope is usually fatal to a human being.

 

[safriz]

It's a bit ridiculous when you were claiming 3 Rafales to suddenly adding a another 2 months later.

Pakistani Armed forces do this type of FK up on every important occasion.
Same in Feb 2019 swift retort.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I don't understand why the Indians don't just take videos of their Rafales inside the hangars to prove they didn't lose any. This is becoming annoying. They won't go and say "We'll prove you're lying,so here are all the Rafale numbered,we didn't lose any".

But they insist on not saying anything.

Because it would reveal that a decent number of Indian jets did indeed get shot down. And that would hurt the childish ego of 1.4 billion clowns. It's easier to think of a new excuse every week, decoys, malfunctions, accidents, etc.

 

[safriz]

Pakistan has claimed 7 kills but most people assumed the 7th one was high altitude Israeli drone.

 

[Toxic]

Pakistan has claimed 7 kills but most people assumed the 7th one was high altitude Israeli drone.

The official claim for the last 2 months was 6 fighters + 1 heron, there was no mention of a 7th fighter

 

[Fatman17]

Yes, and russia spoke of hundreds of Tiger MBT destroyed during 1943 Kursk battle.
It was false.
here sole evidence : one on ground. We are waiting the evidences for the others.

Just go your IOK. you'll find the evidence and in your punjab. Hope you can afford the flight ticket from Paris.