India 's Deep Sea AI Game-Nightmare for India's Enemies

[Joe Shearer]

a network with acoustic sensors to listen for submarines is a military network. it is hard to argue otherwise

Ah, so.
And that to be laid as deep as the lines show?
You have to admit that is a very ambitious thought.

 

[nahtanbob]

Ah, so.
And that to be laid as deep as the lines show?
You have to admit that is a very ambitious thought.

I do not know if India and China even have the technology to install and operate these networks
China is probably more advanced than India here.

I know USA and its allies have these networks. I have no idea on the military effectiveness, costs and technical capabilities here.

For China it is a useless project given the puny size of the Indian submarine fleet

 

[Joe Shearer]

I do not know if India and China even have the technology to install and operate these networks
China is probably more advanced than India here.

I know USA and its allies have these networks. I have no idea on the military effectiveness, costs and technical capabilities here.

For China it is a useless project given the puny size of the Indian submarine fleet

Not just that, if the Indian submarine fleet wanted to make any waves, it wouldn't be in any of the locations marked. Either it would be massed in the Arabian Sea, poised to do harm to Pakistan, or there would be elements there and in the South China Sea.

 

[hussain]

a network with acoustic sensors to listen for submarines is a military network. it is hard to argue otherwise

Ah, so.
And that to be laid as deep as the lines show?
You have to admit that is a very ambitious thought.

​

Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS)​

Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (IUSS)

US Navy Upgrading Undersea Sub-Detecting Sensor Network ​

 

[Nilgiri]

View attachment 22134
What does this visual even mean?
Granted, the PRC has some restricted port rights in some part of the Indian Ocean littoral (the graphic is defective and downright silly in some respects), how does that translate to the kind of shallow-water hydrography that has been described?
Since when did Chittagong and Hampantotta become naval bases for the PLA Navy?
Since when did the PLA Navy acquire those mythical ports in the Red Sea/ Kenyan regions? and where did Djibouti go?
This kind of airy hand-waving in the air post contributes to the degradation of the quality of a thread.

Excessive alarmism helps create the excessive jingoism.

 

[Khansaheeb]

Essentially you are telling me ASW aircraft and helicopters are not needed to hunt for the submarines.

Of course, more methods of detection the better, they all have their limitations and advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Of course, more methods of detection the better, they all have their limitations and advantages and disadvantages.

To be frank, it did seem a little hyperbolic.

 

[nahtanbob]

Of course, more methods of detection the better, they all have their limitations and advantages and disadvantages.

I am skeptical of the technology. If I can do it with a high flying satellite I can do it better with low flying object

 

[Khansaheeb]

I am skeptical of the technology. If I can do it with a high flying satellite I can do it better with low flying object

Higher covers more area, lower covers in more detail. Satellites move more efficiently with a little redirection , aircrafts require more fule and suffer climatic impacts.

 

[nahtanbob]

Higher covers more area, lower covers in more detail. Satellites move more efficiently with a little redirection , aircrafts require more fule and suffer climatic impacts.

The quality of photograph or a signal is better at closer distance. It is laws of physics

 

[nahtanbob]

Higher covers more area, lower covers in more detail. Satellites move more efficiently with a little redirection , aircrafts require more fule and suffer climatic impacts.

Efficient != better. Efficiency is the last metric for the military.

the problem with satellite detection is then what. you need terrestrial assets to destroy it

 

[firohot]

I do not know if India and China even have the technology to install and operate these networks
China is probably more advanced than India here.

I know USA and its allies have these networks. I have no idea on the military effectiveness, costs and technical capabilities here.

For China it is a useless project given the puny size of the Indian submarine fleet

Chinese would install mainly for western navies but 9bv8usly would work to detect all

 

[DDG-80]

Comprehensive Analysis of Multi-Platform ASW Capabilities Against Hangor-Class Submarines​

Platform Capabilities and Roles​

Talwar and Shivalik-Class Frigates​

Variable Depth Sonar (VDS):

• Capabilities: VDS can be lowered to different depths to avoid thermal layers and detect submarines operating at various depths. It provides enhanced detection ranges and adaptability to changing underwater conditions.
• Advantages: Particularly useful in environments where thermal layers might disrupt traditional hull-mounted sonar performance.

Towed Array Sonar:

• Capabilities: Extends the detection range by trailing a long array behind the ship, reducing self-noise and improving the ability to detect faint submarine signals.
• Advantages: Effective for detecting submarines at long distances and over wide areas, making it an essential tool in open seas.

Onboard Helicopters (MH-60R):

• Capabilities: Equipped with dipping sonar, radar, and ASW weapons, these helicopters extend the reach of the frigates’ ASW capabilities.
• Advantages: Flexible and can quickly deploy to areas of interest, providing localized detection and immediate engagement capabilities.

P-8I Poseidon​

Advanced Sensors:

• Capabilities: Features a comprehensive suite of sensors including sonobuoys, radar, and Magnetic Anomaly Detectors (MAD) for wide-area surveillance and detection.
• Advantages: Long endurance and range allow it to cover vast areas, acting as a central node for ASW operations.

Command and Control:

• Capabilities: Serves as a command center, coordinating operations between different ASW assets and ensuring efficient information sharing and response.
• Advantages: Enhances situational awareness and tactical coordination, leading to more effective ASW operations.

MH-60R Seahawk​

Dipping Sonar:

• Capabilities: Provides high-resolution sonar data by lowering the sonar to different depths, essential for detecting submarines in varied underwater environments.
• Advantages: Highly effective in shallow waters where acoustic conditions are complex.

ASW Weapons:

• Capabilities: Can deploy torpedoes and depth charges to engage detected submarines.
• Advantages: Rapid response and flexibility in deployment from both ships and shore bases.

MQ-9B Reaper​

Persistent ISR:

• Capabilities: Long endurance and advanced sensors for continuous surveillance and real-time data relay.
• Advantages: Provides constant monitoring of areas of interest, ensuring no gaps in coverage.

ASW Enhancements:

• Capabilities: Can be equipped with sonobuoys and potentially other ASW sensors for extended detection capabilities.
• Advantages: Supplements other platforms by filling in surveillance gaps and providing additional detection data.

ASW Shallow Water Craft (SWC)

• Low-Frequency Variable Depth Sonar (LFVDS): Highly effective in shallow waters, capable of detecting submarines at various depths by adjusting sonar depth.
• Advantages: Small and agile, designed specifically for operations in littoral zones where larger ships might struggle.

Operational Scenarios​

Open Seas​

Detection:

• Layered Approach: The P-8I conducts wide-area surveillance using radar and sonobuoys, detecting initial contacts. The Talwar and Shivalik frigates deploy VDS and towed arrays to track these contacts over longer ranges and at various depths.
• Coordination: P-8I acts as the command center, directing MH-60Rs and MQ-9Bs to specific areas based on detections. This ensures a continuous and overlapping detection network.

Engagement:

• Localization: MH-60Rs deploy dipping sonar to precisely locate the submarine once an initial detection is made. The P-8I can also use its MAD for final confirmation.
• Attack: Once localized, frigates and aircraft (P-8I, MH-60R) can launch torpedoes and depth charges to neutralize the submarine. SWC can provide additional support, particularly in coastal or shallow regions.

Outcome:

• High Success Probability: The multi-layered detection and rapid, coordinated response increase the likelihood of detecting and engaging Hangor-class submarines effectively.

Shallow Waters (Arabian Sea)​

Detection:

• Environmental Adaptation: Frigates use VDS to counteract thermal layers and detect submarines at different depths. MH-60Rs deploy dipping sonar close to the seabed, improving detection in complex acoustic environments. SWC deploy LFVDS to adapt to complex acoustic conditions in shallow waters.
• Continuous Surveillance: MQ-9Bs provide persistent ISR, monitoring areas of interest and ensuring no submarine remains undetected for long.

Engagement:

• Localized Detection: MH-60Rs' dipping sonar provides precise data for tracking. SWC supplement with their LFVDS, enhancing detection in littoral zones.
• Coordinated Response: The P-8I coordinates asset deployment based on real-time data, ensuring a focused and effective engagement strategy.
• Attack: Once localized, frigates, helicopters, and SWC engage with torpedoes and depth charges.

Outcome:

• Effective Detection and Neutralization: The tailored use of VDS and dipping sonar in shallow waters, combined with persistent ISR, ensures effective detection and neutralization of submarines despite challenging environmental conditions.

Dipping Sonar of MH-60R vs. Sonobuoys​

Advantages of Dipping Sonar:

1. Precision and Flexibility:
   • Depth Control: Dipping sonar can be lowered to specific depths, bypassing thermal layers and improving detection range and accuracy. Sonobuoys are typically fixed-depth or limited-depth devices, making them less adaptable.
   • High-Resolution Data: Dipping sonar provides high-resolution acoustic data, crucial for precise localization of submarines.
2. Rapid Deployment:
   • Immediate Response: MH-60R helicopters can quickly deploy to areas of interest and lower their sonar into the water, providing rapid, localized detection. Sonobuoys require time to be air-dropped and activated.
3. Enhanced Detection in Complex Environments:
   • Shallow Water Advantage: Dipping sonar performs better in shallow waters where acoustic conditions are challenging. It can be adjusted to optimal depths to counteract the complex acoustic environment. Sonobuoys might struggle with interference and false positives in such conditions.
4. Mobility and Persistence:
   • Active Searching: MH-60Rs can actively search large areas by moving and lowering their sonar at different locations, creating a dynamic detection grid. Sonobuoys are stationary once deployed, limiting their coverage area and effectiveness over time.
5. Integrated ASW Capabilities:
   • Weapons Ready: MH-60Rs are armed with torpedoes and depth charges, allowing them to engage detected submarines immediately. Sonobuoys only provide detection data and rely on other platforms for engagement.

Including 16 ASW Shallow Water Craft (SWC) with low-frequency variable depth sonar (LFVDS) boosts the anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities of a diverse team. This team includes Talwar and Shivalik-class frigates, P-8I Poseidon aircraft, MH-60R Seahawk helicopters, and MQ-9B Reaper drones. This combined strategy ensures we can detect, track, and engage Stirling AIP-equipped Hangor-class submarines effectively in both open seas and shallow waters.