India to develop with France engine for desi stealth fighter

[Dalit]

Sure I understand nothing to Rafale after working some years in a Dassault factory.

What was your role in the Dassault factory?

 

[Dalit]

The frame and the powder engine may have 10 years. But what about the seeker and the electronic parts?

MICA for exemple is produced since 1996 circa. It's just impossible the RF seeker is the same on a 2020 missile than in a 1996 missile.

Bro, just calm down. You sound like an Indian now.

 

[Musings]

ffs stick to the topic guys. If someone doesnt want to acknowledge his Indian heritage (understandable) - leave it and move on from now. Discuss the topic instead............

 

[Blain2]

You said correctly, but what India learned it with the Su-30MKI deal, including engine was very good learning lesson for india.

This was the reason the New Dealincluded 100 TOT mandatory!

Why you think india was discussing with UK and USA for the ssame

Technology Transfer Terms: Multiple reputable sources indicate that 100% ToT is part of the agreement, including full access to the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) related to the engine design

It's approx 7-8 billion deal - now I don't think india will do the same mistake it did before with the Su-30MKI, and the Indian government already has open clarity on that.

Wait and see. Reports say a lot. Proof of the pudding is in the eating. What countries spend hundreds of billions in developing, they won't give away for $7-8B. Had that been the case, the likes of Saudis and others would have gotten their hands on full TF Engine TOT from the West as they spend far more and frequently than India.

 

[Blain2]

The key question is "Based on what criteria will local manufacturing be judged?"

I know how to use machining machines; I can easily purchase various types of steel in the market; I can download blueprints for various firearms from the internet; I can prepare explosive chemicals.
Ignoring Chinese legal restrictions, I can manufacture any rifle. My rifles may be inaccurate and inadequate; they may break after a few rounds... but I do make them completely in-house.
Based on Indian standards, I manufacture my rifles 100% domestically. Just like many Indians now believe that the iPhone is a 100% made in India product.

=============================================

Modern turbofan engines can be divided into two parts.
1. The core engine. Its principles and structure are completely public. All turbofan engines worldwide share the same concept. They differ in the number of air compression stages and blade counts, but this information is publicly available.
However, their processing techniques, material handling, and material formulations are absolutely confidential. Furthermore, even with this knowledge, manufacturing them would require a massive investment.
This is clearly not something India can achieve.
2. Engine accessories. This includes all engine control components. In particular, the chips within the control system cannot be reverse engineered. This is similar to reverse engineering the chip in an iPhone.
This is clearly not something India can achieve either.

I think you left out one other key component. Perhaps it is #2 and that is the metallurgy used in turbofan blades. If that is what you alluded to as "material handling" then I agree 100%. Nobody is sharing that with anyone.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Wait and see. Reports say a lot. Proof of the pudding is in the eating. What countries spend hundreds of billions in developing, they won't give away for $7-8B. Had that been the case, the likes of Saudis and others would have gotten their hands on full TF Engine TOT from the West as they spend far more and frequently than India.

But this time is different. From the very beginning, India made full ToT the first non-negotiable condition, precisely because of the lessons learned from the AL-31 engine deal with Russia, where critical know-how was never shared

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

IDK...

Indians can always find some one to share with them engine tech.

1. Russia
2. USA
3. Now, France

interesting, no shortage of achievement here, for a country with 'world class talent' and 'engineers'!

 

[Yasser76]

But this time is different. From the very beginning, India made full ToT the first non-negotiable condition, precisely because of the lessons learned from the AL-31 engine deal with Russia, where critical know-how was never shared

"But this time is different"

Alas my poor Indian friend, it was "different" when you purchased Scorpenes from the French too right?

It was different when Russian promised you full partnership on PAK FA.

But sure, this time they will give you their military crown jewels tech, it is different this time....

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

IDK...

Indians can always find some one to share with them engine tech.

1. Russia
2. USA
3. Now, France

interesting, no shortage of achievement here, for a country with 'world class talent' and 'engineers'!

How how china works?

Instead of innovating on their own, they’ve often relied on cloning and stealing technology. And let’s not forget—last time, it was an Indian-born engineer, Noshir Sheriarji Gowadia, who handed over critical secrets About B2 stealth aircrafts, and even China acquired U.S. stealth aircraft data through espionage and cyber theft,.. it's already open facts

China’s WS-series aircraft engines are heavily based on Russian designs, especially in their early generations, ws mostly copy and paste, now some improvements and upgrades are their.

So kindly don't throw the stones because might others know the history of china

 

[Yasser76]

How how china works?

Instead of innovating on their own, they’ve often relied on cloning and stealing technology. And let’s not forget—last time, it was an Indian-born engineer, Noshir Sheriarji Gowadia, who handed over critical secrets.

China’s WS-series aircraft engines are heavily based on Russian designs, especially in their early generations, ws mostly copy and paste, now some improvements are their

US cloned Nazi tech, USSR cloned some western tech. Cloned or not, a good weapon shoots down it's target.

Dhruv, Akash, Bhramos all had massive foreign inputs.

 

[Michael]

I think you left out one other key component. Perhaps it is #2 and that is the metallurgy used in turbofan blades. If that is what you alluded to as "material handling" then I agree 100%. Nobody is sharing that with anyone.

My English is not good, so I can't confirm whether the translation software is correctly translating my content.

1. Core engine(核心机). This is the main part of the turbofan engine we commonly see. The turbofan blades are one of the internal components. Its design drawings are public. However, its processing technology and material formula are only mastered by a very few countries. China has complete mastery of this technology. At the same time, China also supplies turbofan engine manufacturers in Europe and the United States (for manufacturing cost factors).
The core engine is not only used in aircraft turbofan engines, but also has corresponding models of naval gas turbines and civilian gas generators.

2. Engine accessories(附件匣). This is a general term for the various components outside the core engine. It includes the control system, cooling system, fuel supply system, electronic system, etc.
For example, the FADEC, which we often talk about, is one of these components.

 

[MH.Yang]

But this time is different. From the very beginning, India made full ToT the first non-negotiable condition, precisely because of the lessons learned from the AL-31 engine deal with Russia, where critical know-how was never shared

Aero engine technology is not something you can buy for a few billion dollars, even if it's just a medium thrust engine.

And your basic science and technology is so obviously lacking that you can't build it even if the French send you the design.

For example, nickel/cobalt based single crystal high temperature alloy components, TBCs materials, lightweight composites, precision manufacturing technologies, etc., these technologies and materials are still blank fields in India.

The best you can do is just rely on imported components to assemble the engine, which I'm afraid is more expensive than buying it outright.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Aero engine technology is not something you can buy for a few billion dollars, even if it's just a medium thrust engine.

And your basic science and technology is so obviously lacking that you can't build it even if the French send you the design.

For example, nickel/cobalt based single crystal high temperature alloy components, TBCs materials, lightweight composites, precision manufacturing technologies, etc., these technologies and materials are still blank fields in India.

The best you can do is just rely on imported components to assemble the engine, which I'm afraid is more expensive than buying it outright.

India has already learned its lesson with the Russian AL-31FP engine. Yes, HAL manufactures about 75% of it locally, but the critical 25%—turbine blades, single-crystal alloys, thermal coatings, FADEC software—was never transferred. That dependency remains a strategic vulnerability.

This is exactly why India didn’t go with the U.S. or U.K. for the AMCA engine deal. If Washington or London were truly willing to share 100% of the technology, there would have been no chance for France to step in. But the U.S. and U.K. were clear: no complete transfer.

At the same time, India is still buying U.S. engines—like the GE F404/F414—for the Tejas Mk1A and Mk2. That makes sense for production timelines. But those are purchases, not a foundation for self-reliance.

With France, the condition was non-negotiable from day one: 100% transfer of technology. Safran agreed, and that’s why this deal matters. it’s about ensuring that for the next generation, India owns the technology end-to-end and never repeats the Russian engine experience.

 

[MH.Yang]

How how china works?

Instead of innovating on their own, they’ve often relied on cloning and stealing technology. And let’s not forget—last time, it was an Indian-born engineer, Noshir Sheriarji Gowadia, who handed over critical secrets About B2 stealth aircrafts, and even China acquired U.S. stealth aircraft data through espionage and cyber theft,.. it's already open facts

China’s WS-series aircraft engines are heavily based on Russian designs, especially in their early generations, ws mostly copy and paste, now some improvements and upgrades are their.

So kindly don't throw the stones because might others know the history of china

You have been misled by the Indian media.

China's turbofan engine development started in 1963, and the supporting basic industrial system started at the same time. China has invested more than 100 billion dollars and a lot of time and manpower in this field, which is not something that can be done by just saying “reverse engineering”.

The medium-thrust engine that India wanted from France was similar in performance to the WS-9, and China acquired the MK202 technology from the UK at the time, and even with full technology transfer, it took 28 years (1975-2003) for full localization to be completed.

You are far underestimating the technical difficulty of aero engines.

 

[iblini]

You have been misled by the Indian media.

China's turbofan engine development started in 1963, and the supporting basic industrial system started at the same time. China has invested more than 100 billion dollars and a lot of time and manpower in this field, which is not something that can be done by just saying “reverse engineering”.

The medium-thrust engine that India wanted from France was similar in performance to the WS-9, and China acquired the MK202 technology from the UK at the time, and even with full technology transfer, it took 28 years (1975-2003) for full localization to be completed.

You are far underestimating the technical difficulty of aero engines.

It's Raj that you are dealing with, infamous for chucking out pile of useless b.s which others can finished in one sentence, self claimed neutral but always revealed his Jai hind identity after a few exchange.