Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians

[suriya]

Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians: David Reich​

Synopsis

For the first time, we have a genetic model that fits statistically for most present-day South Asians: mixture of IVC-like people, and other (smaller contributions) from other populations.​

David Reich, a professor of Harvard Medical School, partnered with Indian archaeologist Vasant Shinde and other experts to study skeletal DNA from Rakhigarhi, an Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) site. Their study, published last week in the journal ‘Cell’, has generated a debate with its new assessments on the IVC period and the extent of its imprint on modern day South Asia. Excerpts from an email interview with David Reich by ET:
Our study finds that the single largest genetic contributor to people living in South Asia today, is people from a population of which the Indus Valley Civilisation individual we analysed was a part. Some people in South Asia have a modest, but meaningful proportion of their ancestry from people from the Steppe, north of the Black and Caspian Seas; the number ranges from 0-30%. People with this ancestry almost certainly spread into South Asia from the north 4,000-3,500 years ago.

Many people question how the genetic evidence from the IVC, which predates the Aryan phase, can establish that there was no mass migration or invasion.
I think the identification of the ancestry of people living at the time of the IVC phase in South Asia does meaningfully contribute to our understanding of what happened later. For the first time, we have a genetic model that fits statistically for most present-day South Asians: mixture of IVC-like people, and other (smaller
contributions) from other populations for which we have genetic data. This allows us to be specific about what other populations contributed to present-day South Asians, and when the mix occurred.

Shinde has stated that the Vedic era followed naturally from the Harappan /Indus Valley civilisations and was not introduced by outsiders/Aryans. Would you agree?

This is an archaeological question and not one that I can comment on authoritatively as a geneticist. It is true that people, with ancestry like that of the IVC individual(s) we sequenced, were the primary source of ancestry of people in South Asia. So, it is natural to expect that they made important cultural contributions as well. Archaeologically, the material cultures of the early Vedic period have little obvious connections to those from the Steppe. So, even though there was a substantial
(if quantitatively modest) genetic contribution from the north, the material cultural contribution may be hard to detect. We see something similar in some instances in the archaeological and ancient DNA record of Europe, as discussed in the final paragraphs of our ‘Science’ paper.




Full report:

Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians: David Reich

For the first time, we have a genetic model that fits statistically for most present-day South Asians: mixture of IVC-like people, and other (smaller contributions) from other populations.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[r3alist]

FINALLY WE CAN START SAYING ANCIENT PAKISTAN

 

[suriya]

Do the findings of the study in any way indicate that the IVC is “the largest source of ancestry for South Asians” and not the Aryan civilisation?

I don’t know what the “Aryan civilisation” is; there is certainly no archaeological evidence of a civilisation north of the Black and Caspian Seas or in the Steppe in the Bronze Age that could compare in any way in complexity or cultural sophistication to the IVC. The genetic data certainly points to the IVC being “the largest source of ancestry for South Asians”.

Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians: David Reich

For the first time, we have a genetic model that fits statistically for most present-day South Asians: mixture of IVC-like people, and other (smaller contributions) from other populations.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[suriya]

Two most interest aspects:

1. From early civilisation aspect like farming to far more sophisticated things like town planning all developed by the IVC people indigenously and didn't come from Iranian side.

2. Though ample evident of Steppe DNA infusion but the Vedic era civilisation evolved indigenously by the offsprings IVC people.

FINALLY WE CAN START SAYING ANCIENT PAKISTAN

Fina an ancient name at least.

Indus valley includes large part of today's North western Indian states like Haryana and Gujarat.

 

[r3alist]

Two most interest aspects:

1. From early civilisation aspect like farming to far more sophisticated things like town planning all developed by the IVC people indigenously and didn't come from Iranian side.

2. Though ample evident of Steppe DNA infusion but the Vedic era civilisation evolved indigenously by the offsprings IVC people.


Fina an ancient name at least.

Indus valley includes large part of today's North western Indian states like Haryana and Gujarat.

Pakistan gave birth to India

 

[Alter_Ego]

IVC seems like a mystery.
It was a highly advanced culture and seemed to be a largely collectivistic and gentle society.

No one seem to agree what ancestry or ethnicity they had. Nor how they vanished or why.

 

[FuturePAF]

FINALLY WE CAN START SAYING ANCIENT PAKISTAN

Ancient Meluha as the Sumerians called it; a name predating the name Indus, symbolized in a seal from 2200bc, or 4200 years ago.



Also, considering Sanskrit is the ancestral language of the Indian civilization and in Sanskrit Meluhan means foreigner, should indicated the Sanskrit based civilization is foreign to the region. Not saying the Sanskrit culture didn’t conquer and interbreed with the ancient Meluhans, but per the language, it shows Meluha predates the Sanskrit (Aryan) culture. Also considering the IVC script has NOT been deciphered or linked to Sanskrit shows that they don’t share a common origin.

So yes, Pakistan could be said to be the civilization of the people along the Indus River, regardless of what religion they follow now, just like the Egyptians now are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians, by and large, despite following the religions brought in from their east, Coptic Christianity and Islam.

They further claim that Meluhha is the origin of the Sanskrit word mleccha, meaning "barbarian, foreigner".<a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meluhha#cite_note-54"><span>[</span>54<span>]</span></a>

The Sanskrit culture probably originated with the Sintashta culture or a people that these people drive out and south towards the Indus River.

 

[FuturePAF]

Two most interest aspects:

1. From early civilisation aspect like farming to far more sophisticated things like town planning all developed by the IVC people indigenously and didn't come from Iranian side.

2. Though ample evident of Steppe DNA infusion but the Vedic era civilisation evolved indigenously by the offsprings IVC people.


Fina an ancient name at least.

Indus valley includes large part of today's North western Indian states like Haryana and Gujarat.

Meluha; 2200 bc per Sumerian records. PRE-Aryan Invasion. Meluhan means foreigner or barbarian in Sanskrit.

 

[r3alist]

Ancient Meluha as the Sumerians called it; a name predating the name Indus, symbolized in a seal from 2200bc, or 4200 years ago.

Also, considering Sanskrit is the ancestral language of the Indian civilization and in Sanskrit Meluhan means foreigner, should indicated the Sanskrit based civilization is foreign to the region. Not saying the Sanskrit culture didn’t conquer and interbreed with the ancient Meluhans, but per the language, it shows Meluha predates the Sanskrit (Aryan) culture. So yes, Pakistan could be said to be the civilization of the people along the Indus River, regardless of what religion they follow now, just like the Egyptians now are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians, by and large, despite following the religions brought in from their east, Coptic Christianity and Islam.


The Sanskrit culture probably originated with the Sintashta culture or a people that these people drive out and south towards the Indus River.

Good post

Post more if you have to share

Someone knowledgeable needs to develop this narrative a bit more

All of the historical artefacts is under their feet, they just need to look at it and talk about it

It was always absurd to think you had the Persians.... Then a huge gap..... Then whatever the Indians wanted to claim

It was never thus

 

[FuturePAF]

Good post

Post more if you have to share

Someone knowledgeable needs to develop this narrative a bit more

All of the historical artefacts is under their feet, they just need to look at it and talk about it

It was always absurd to think you had the Persians.... Then a huge gap..... Then whatever the Indians wanted to claim

It was never thus

It is hypothesized my many that climate change forced large population shifts, including the drying up of the Hakra River. Much archeological works needs to be done in the south eastern cholistan desert.

Perviously didn’t happen because our rulers didn’t want to think of pre-Islamic times, but I think our public is more reasonable to understand we are natives here, not mostly descendants of foreign Arabs or Turks, and we mostly accepted Islam, but genetically are the same people, just like the Egyptians and Iraqis.

Pakistan needs to study how our majority muslim countries explain their current Islamic culture in the context of their previous eras of different beliefs. It would lot be wrong to say there was a pre-Vedic period, a Vedic period (where that culture predominated), and a post-Vedic (Islam-led) in what is now Pakistan. Also it should be important to show the transformation was gradual and not primarily conversion by the sword. A gradual process of centuries of regular people accepting Islam by choice.

 

[nahtanbob]

There is no proof that Baluchistan and KPK were part of Indus Valley Civilization. In any case IVC has no decipherable script, no known kings/kingdoms and no architectural artifacts. It is not like anyone in 5th or 10th century proclaimed to be descendants of the IVC

 

[FuturePAF]

There is no proof that Baluchistan and KPK were part of Indus Valley Civilization. In any case IVC has no decipherable script, no known kings/kingdoms and no architectural artifacts. It is not like anyone in 5th or 10th century proclaimed to be descendants of the IVC

How far back does recorded history go. This is where genetic archaeology comes in as this article tried to show.

 

[nahtanbob]

How far back does recorded history go. This is where genetic archaeology comes in as this article tried to show.

It depends on which region we are talking about.

Recorded history goes back to 4000 BC for Egypt. The Rosetta stone allows us to decipher Egyptian writings from that era For the Indian subcontinent it is 500-1000 BC.

 

[Lulldapull]

It depends on which region we are talking about.

Recorded history goes back to 4000 BC for Egypt. The Rosetta stone allows us to decipher Egyptian writings from that era For the Indian subcontinent it is 500-1000 BC.

We all know the Yamanaya and the Sintashta cultures are our forefathers. Ample evidence now with the haplogroups no? Genetic confirmation. Most of us are actually Iranians who settled in Iran from modern day Ukraine and continued on down the Indus and overwhelmed/ assimilated with the local dravidian cultures over the last 4000 odd years. @vsdoc

 

[Lulldapull]

Who here has done their DNA testing?

If you do it you will find out the reality.