Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians

tune bc achar daalna hai ki ancestors hazaaron saal pehle kaha se aaye ?
I’m just sayin that people are totally unaware. Nobody cares where they’re from, but then we got lower castes who start making shit up as they go along no? Then you run into all sorts a problems cuz some mofo starts claiming he’s holy/ unholy no?

Bukvaas must be addressed before it causes problems.
 
There is no proof that Baluchistan and KPK were part of Indus Valley Civilization. In any case IVC has no decipherable script, no known kings/kingdoms and no architectural artifacts. It is not like anyone in 5th or 10th century proclaimed to be descendants of the IVC
That's a good point, what was the script of my illustrious forebears from the ivc, any proof of scripture?


@Future PAF

Look up Graham Hancock, you probably know him

Are there any good ivc documentaries?
 
I’m just sayin that people are totally unaware. Nobody cares where they’re from, but then we got lower castes who start making shit up as they go along no? Then you run into all sorts a problems cuz some mofo starts claiming he’s holy/ unholy no?

Bukvaas must be addressed before it causes problems.
haha, there would be a lot of dissapointed Syeds.
 
For an organism that lives for about 70 years, on a planet that is 4.5 Bn years old, will live for another 7.5 bn years, we seem to care a lot about all this crap


Well that's just the human condition

Obsessed with the narcissism of small differences

This forum would not exist if not the case lol
 
Profound, bro..

I have cousins and their nieces/nephews who are fust zeneration Amriki.. they full gora like in every way imaginable.. rehn sehen, baat cheet and zeneral outlook wise.

hardly any trace of discernible desi there

The only unacceptable conversion..... islam

Never mind the actual mass conversion everyone is subject to, just not islam
 

Pakistan: The True Heir Of Indus Valley Civilization – Analysis​


The vision of Pakistan’s founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in the 1940s did not only constitute creation of a Muslim political entity at the expense of India’s Hindu domination. It was also embedded in thousands of years of historical and geographical realities. These aspects clearly emerge from Jinnah’s interviews given to foreign correspondents where he described the geopolitical importance of Pakistan. The two nation reality also did not emerge only because of the differences between Hindu and Muslim peoples. It was an outcome of thousands of years of historical, geographical and genetic distinction between the peoples of Indus Valley Civilization and those occupying the Gangetic plains.

The existence of Indus Valley Civilization emerged though the ruins at Harappa in Punjab, Pakistan which were first described by Charles Masson in 1842, in his “Narrative of Various Journeys in Balochistan, Afghanistan, and the Punjab.” Though the site was visited by General Alexander Cunningham in 1856, who later headed the archeological survey of northern India, it was in 1921-22 that the excavations began which unearthed the great civilization buried under the sand for thousands of years.

The irony of it all was that it was General Alexander Cunningham who allowed East Indian Railways which was constructing railway line between the cities of Lahore and Karachi, to use the ancient bricks recovered from these sites as track ballast for the 150 kilometers of nearby stretch and thus destroyed much of the city of Harappa (3300 BC – 1300 BC). Mohenjodaro (2600 BC – 1900 BC) in Sindh, Pakistan was excavated by 1931. Mehrgarh (7000 BC -. 2500 BC) in Balochistan, Pakistan was discovered in 1974 and the excavations continued from 1974-86 and again from 1997-2000. Rehman Dheri (4000 BC) in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa was excavated from 1976-1980. Based on recent evidence and analyses, archeologists and historians have proclaimed that Indus Valley Civilization is over 9000 years old, making it one of the oldest civilizations of the world.

The South Asian subcontinent is principally divided into two major geographical regions; the Indus Valley and its westerly inclined tributaries, and the Ganges Valley with its easterly inclined tributaries. In his book, “The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan,” Aitzaz Ahsan identifies the geographical divide between these two regions as the Gurdaspur-Kathiawar salient, a watershed which is southwesterly inclined down to the Arabian Sea. This watershed also depicted the dividing line between the peoples of Indus Valley Civilization and those of Gangetic plains and also corresponds almost exactly with the current day Pakistan-India border.

Historically, only the Mauryas, Muslims and the British amalgamated these two regions as a unified state. For most of the remaining history, when one empire did not rule both the regions as a unified state, the Indus Valley Civilizational domain was always governed as one separate political entity.

Rather than an unnatural creation as propounded by many, Pakistan much more than the Gangetic plains, is an appropriate and modern embodiment of thousands of years old Indus Valley Civilization. The historical, geographical and its people’s organic linkages with Arab, Persian, Turkic and South Central Asian populace also clearly differentiates it as a distinct and definite independent identity as compared to the rest of India.

The discovery of Indus Valley Civilization in the run up to 1947 independence of Pakistan and India provided Indian nationalist Hindus an opportunity, to embed their Vedic Hindu cultural identity in a civilization, which was one of the oldest civilizations on earth and also predated emergence of Islam. However, the later identification of emergence of Vedic Hindu cultural traditions between 1500 – 600 BC, discounted such linkages. Also, the fact that Indus Valley Civilization’s cultural moorings were discovered mainly in the Indus River Valley, and partly in Ghaggar-Hakra basin and in the Doab, these cultural moorings did not find an extension into the central and lower Ganges Valley in the eastern and central Indian plains. The presence of fortified cities, town planning and drainage system, depiction of specialized epic art form and the architecture of burnt bricks, sea trade, use of seals, weights, measures and script and the custom of burying the dead in cemeteries, presented clear differentiation because of the absence of such depiction in Vedic Hindu literature and culture.

Many adherents of Indian Hindu nationalist ideology believed that India was and is a primarily Hindu nation and has Hindu religious culture in continuity from Vedic Aryans. The mosaic of cultures of the past evolving into composite Indian Hindu culture through the process of history was not based on archeological evidence but what they essentially believed in. In many cases distorting and manipulating or even forging the mute archaeological evidence through depiction of fire places as fire altars, waste pits as sacrificial pits in Harappan era sites and the imaginary reading of Sanskrit legends, was quoted in order to suit their pseudo-ideological and opportunistic interests.

Between 1900-1300 BC the civilization declined and there were no more references to Meluhha (Mesopotamian name for Indus Valley Civilization landmass) in Mesopotamian finds. However, the people who made up this great civilization continued living in places like Mehrgarh, Harappa, Mohenjodaro and other settlements long after that.

The legacy of Indus Valley Civilization lives on in present day Pakistan. Amongst some of the aspects that can still be traced to this legacy are the trade and commerce routes developed by the mentors of this great civilization. Ships from Meluhha regularly sailed from locations near modern day city of Karachi for the ports of Babylon. And they evidently made stops all along the way, as indicated through discovery of seals found in Oman, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain as well.

The city of Peshawar lies on what is thought to have been one of their main overland trade routes. That route is now a major highway that constitutes the eastern approach to the Khyber Pass and links the northwestern Indus River Plain to the highlands of Afghanistan and Central Asia. An old branch of the route runs from Peshawar, south into rugged tribal territory, through the Pakistani cities of Kohat and Bannu and the foothills of the Suleiman Mountains down across the Gomal Plain to the early historical site of Rehman Dheri.

After the decline of this civilization, the religion and language of which has still not been deciphered, at different times these people followed Vedic Hindu culture and traditions, also adopted Buddhism and in the end embraced Islam and are now overwhelmingly Muslim.

The core spread of Indus Valley Civilization primarily lay in Pakistan. The three major cities and many other sites which represent the core of Indus Valley Civilization are all located in Pakistan. However, the Indians still refer to India as the “Home of Indus Valley Civilization,” which is surprising and indeed a misnomer. India needs to realign its history and should seek its identity in its own legacy instead of claiming something to which they do not belong to.

It is the people of Pakistan who represent one of the oldest civilizations on earth. Indus Valley Civilization’s legacy is linked to Pakistan and this fact cannot be denied. The people of Pakistan thus rightly claim to be the true heirs of Indus Valley Civilization.

 
That's a good point, what was the script of my illustrious forebears from the ivc, any proof of scripture?


@Future PAF

Look up Graham Hancock, you probably know him

Are there any good ivc documentaries?

We have little proof that either Indians or Pakistanis are forebears of the IVC. I am sure there is some stuff in the gene pool
 
in Sanskrit Meluhan means foreigner
No. There was no such word anywhere in any Inscriptions found in India lest Sanskrit not even in oral traditions. It's a Mesopotamian term and people assume it's indus valley. Ditto assume.
Also considering the IVC script has NOT been deciphered or linked to Sanskrit shows that they don’t share a common origin.
Self contradictory. Nobody knows what language IVC spoke. It could very well be an old Prakrit style. Languages don't simply die out they evolve.
 
No. There was no such word anywhere in any Inscriptions found in India lest Sanskrit not even in oral traditions. It's a Mesopotamian term and people assume it's indus valley. Ditto assume.

Self contradictory. Nobody knows what language IVC spoke. It could very well be an old Prakrit style. Languages don't simply die out they evolve.
Languages can indeed die out; when speakers adopt other languages, especially when one civilization supplants another, and imposes its language upon the other.

Foreigners, like say the English, can come to South Asia, with a language not at all related to any of the local languages. Adopting English words is not an evolutionary of native languages, per se, but a gradual process of supplanting it, if done for long enough and with sufficient preferential treatment to the words of the foreign language, those new words just become the words for a certain thing. When the memory of those old words fade with the last living speakers lives, those words get lost.

So the IVC language was almost certainly its own language with the Aryans imposing their language upon the conquered peoples, most likely in a gradual process, as we haven’t found evidence of destroyed cities or mass graves or other markers of mass population replacement.


Ancient Egyptian is probably the language we can all imagine was widely spoken, but now probably has no daily speakers. With Egyptian, though, the dialect, or way they speaker Arabic is still held over from their ancient languages, but not the worlds. That is the one thing I will give as be an aspect of language that stays constant while people transition from language to language.

 
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Languages can indeed die out; when speakers adopt other languages, especially when one civilization supplants another, and imposes its language upon the other.

Foreigners, like say the English, can come to South Asia, with a language not at all related to any of the local languages. Adopting English words is not an evolutionary of native languages, per se, but a gradual process of supplanting it, if done for long enough and with sufficient preferential treatment to the words of the foreign language, those new words just become the words for a certain thing. When the memory of those old words fade with the last living speakers lives, those words get lost.

So the IVC language was almost certainly its own language with the Aryans imposing their language upon the conquered peoples, most likely in a gradual process, as we haven’t found evidence of destroyed cities or mass graves or other markers of mass population replacement.


Ancient Egyptian is probably the language we can all imagine was widely spoken, but now probably has no daily speakers. With Egyptian, though, the dialect, or way they speaker Arabic is still held over from their ancient languages, but not the worlds. That is the one thing I will give as be an aspect of language that stays constant while people transition from language to language.


Looking into neolithic Europe is also quite interesting as to its original native languages before the Yamnaya arc (the Yamnaya being related to the Andronovo and Sintashta that would come after them further east in steppe, being the indo-european bridge we see today from Europe, Iran and Indian subcontinent).

If you have time the Minoans are very interesting to read about (they were likely one of the last "Pelasgian" languages i.e pre-Greek in the Greek region pre-bronze age collapse due to Crete holding some degree of insularity relative to the mainland).

Along with the Etruscan (and other italic + central european tribes too) that seem to have been remote/insular enough within the Italian appenines to hold sufficient pre-indo european language retention till Roman (Latin) domination much later in iron age.

The only remnant of pre-indo european in Europe is very likely just Basque now. There are substrate that persist in various languages (i.e their peculiar absorption from pre-existing languages) that can be linguistically studied by modelling deducing from our construction of proto-Indo European relative to the languages vocabulary downstream that doesn't jive. A very interesting field of work.

Here is a reply I posted in a whatsapp group some time back:
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traces of the Neolithic (pre-PIE), too many rabbit holes to get lost in the end. I was reading a book that mentioned that to this day, southern Greece has more "pre-greek" sounding names in various toponyms compared to northern Greece and that this had lead various linguistic scholars to postulate that the PIE migration entrenched in Northern Greece, founding settlements etc there.... initially before permeating southwards more slowly to what is often called "Pelasgian" (the pre-Greek speaking populations).

Then there is the whole fascinating story of the Minoans of Crete, likely being a Pelasgian-type holdout from mainland Greece (which would eventually form Mycenae) till about 1400 BC or so when Mycenae influenced them sufficiently to evolve a new script (Linear B) to write some of the earliest Greek. Linear A which predates it along with Cretan hieroglyphs however are undeciphered and are likely of the (pre-Greek, paleo-European) Minoan language.

The peculiar situation would not last as the bronze age collapse would start around 1200 BC. By about 1000 BC, both the Minoan-Mycenaen culture hybrid (on Crete) and Mycenaean culture proper were gone. Iron age Greece would consolidate Crete culturally far more (i.e PIE only -with archaic greek to classical greek ).

With all this in mind, its astonishing the Basque have persevered as they have. Everywhere else (where Indo-European languages have consolidated in Europe)….we only have substrate analysis to deduce speculatively. The dead ends are significant through (given the water under bridge effect with divergence), so I think artificial intelligence resources coming to bear will not be much help past whats been done already. But we will have to see.

@Joe Shearer
 
Looking into neolithic Europe is also quite interesting as to its original native languages before the Yamnaya arc (the Yamnaya being related to the Andronovo and Sintashta that would come after them further east in steppe, being the indo-european bridge we see today from Europe, Iran and Indian subcontinent).

If you have time the Minoans are very interesting to read about (they were likely one of the last "Pelasgian" languages i.e pre-Greek in the Greek region pre-bronze age collapse due to Crete holding some degree of insularity relative to the mainland).

Along with the Etruscan (and other italic + central european tribes too) that seem to have been remote/insular enough within the Italian appenines to hold sufficient pre-indo european language retention till Roman (Latin) domination much later in iron age.

The only remnant of pre-indo european in Europe is very likely just Basque now. There are substrate that persist in various languages (i.e their peculiar absorption from pre-existing languages) that can be linguistically studied by modelling deducing from our construction of proto-Indo European relative to the languages vocabulary downstream that doesn't jive. A very interesting field of work.

Here is a reply I posted in a whatsapp group some time back:


@Joe Shearer
These are indeed interesting civilizations. I visited the Getty Villa in LA last year, got to see many artifacts from some of these civilizations, if I remember correctly, I think there was even IVC artifacts as well.

The basque are a uniquely interesting people, some even hypothesize they are descendants of more Neanderthal DNA and these were the people, if I remover correctly, succeeded in never really being conquered fully by anyone. The Islamic conquests of Iberia always have the basque as unconquered.

Their language stands as a testimonial of their survival. The sole surviving pre-Indo-European language. Perhaps it will help in deciphering the IVC script in a round about way.

Also the following video explains how the Romans kind of let the basque do their thing, even though maps show this area as part of the Roman Empire, supporting my hypothesis that language shifts are gradual and only really take hold if the ruler impresses up the public its preferential status for long enough, such as for centuries.

 
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These are indeed interesting civilizations. I visited the Getty Villa in LA last year, got to see many artifacts from some of these civilizations, if I remember correctly, I think there was even IVC artifacts as well.

The basque are a uniquely interesting people, some even hypothesize they are descendants of more Neanderthal DNA and these were the people, if I remover correctly, succeeded in never really being conquered fully by anyone. The Islamic conquests of Iberia always have the basque as unconquered.

Their language stands as a testimonial of their survival. The sole surviving pre-Indo-European language. Perhaps it will help in deciphering the IVC script in a round about way.

Also the following video explains how the Romans kind of let the basque do their thing, even though maps show this area as part of the Roman Empire, supporting my hypothesis that language shifts are gradual and only really take hold if the ruler impresses up the public its preferential status for long enough, such as for centuries.

@Nilgiri
@FuturePAF

Since you tagged me, a word of caution.

David Reich is a sober, serious researcher who avoids controversy. He is not willing to say or write anything that contradicts the rampage on which his erstwhile partners on the Rakhigarhi genetic study have gone.

The essential facts, including what they found at Rakhigarhi, are these:
  1. The Rakhigarhi skeleton, found in distinctly Indus Valley Civilisation remains belonging to the long period of decline, was genetically free of any external or steppe traces.
  2. It reinforces the canonical reconstruction that the Indus Valley Civilisation, while it had trade connections with the Central Asian steppes, was not populated by people with genetic ties to the steppe.
  3. It also reinforces the canonical reconstruction that the ANI, Ancestral North Indian, profile is a mixture of this IVC profile, of the matrix hunter-gatherer profile that mixed with Iranian farmers descending from the Afghan plateau to form the IVC culture, and of traces of steppe genetic profiles.
  4. That leaves us with the proposition that ASI, Ancestral South Indian, was the same, without the steppe genetic profiles.
  5. That proposition #5 is largely right, but not a universal, is revealed by the numerous studies that have shown that a steppe profile is prominent among certain very restricted endogamous groups, amounting typically to 2% of the general population. This is an exception.
  6. It is safe to say, therefore, as the headline proclaims, that the vast bulk of the profile of Indians, is composed of a mix of the IVC and the original hunter-gatherer profiles.
  7. It is also safe to say that special constructions that have been proposed are politico-cultural deviations from academically rigorous conclusions, and should be treated sceptically.
Given the wonderful Roman holiday that this thread seems to have afforded a particular type of membership, this is all that may be said on the matter without inviting annoying interjections. Anything further off this thread.
 
The essential facts, including what they found at Rakhigarhi, are these:
  1. The Rakhigarhi skeleton, found in distinctly Indus Valley Civilisation remains belonging to the long period of decline, was genetically free of any external or steppe traces.

Is it the case that this entire study rests on a single skeleton? For all we know that individual may have been a traveller or trader; a Marco Polo of the times?
 
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Is it the case that this entire study rests on a single skeleton?
A unique case, though not a unique skeleton. It was due to Dr. Reich and his colleagues, medical researchers with a tight focus on recovering DNA from human remains that had been thought impossible before.

The study of the DNA of this human's remains showed that there was no steppe genetic influence.

It is possible to speculate, for instance, that the Indus Valley Civilisation was populated by an entirely mixed race with varied genetic profiles, and that such a mixed population included a proportion with steppe ancestry. Of course that would be an equally valid hypothesis. That, incidentally, the lack of genetic evidence of any kind until this path-breaking discovery, led to other speculative hypotheses. For instance, that of the OOI (Out Of India) school.

The OOI school, with its Indo-centric hard-wiring and its cultural compulsions, believes that all so-called Indo-European languages were branches or descendants of Sanskrit, and that, in a sense, all human culture associated with Indo-European languages flowed from cultural practices dating back to c. 10,000 BC and based within south Asia. Disproving that contention is not easy, as a huge amount of additional information has to be presented, defended and established (not always successfully, irrespective of the amount of proof supplied of the significance of such evidence). That contention, like all other contentions before the Rakhigarhi skeletal analysis, was based on circumstance, and without archaeological or (the current scientific front opened up) genetic evidence.

The significance of the Rakhigarhi study, and its unique nature, stems from the introduction of genetic profiling into the question of the origins of the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilisation.

The significance of this study is that it is one more step forward, and adds an additional dimension of stability to the hitherto logically constructed but unsupported by physical evidence hypothesis on the subject of origins of the IVC population.

For all we know that individual may have been a traveller or trader; a Marco Polo of the times?
It was (I think this has been mentioned; if not, apologies, and it is mentioned here) a female skeleton. The likelihood of a female traveller in c. 2000 BC is extremely remote, although it cannot be ruled out.
 

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