Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians

Pak text books need to emphasize the IVC predates the Aryans. It changes everything.

Hinduism arrived into South Asia after the IVC, and then developed further once it was in the region.
That's what I meant. The IVC was there, possibly for millennia before.....in Moenjodaro Harrpa etc..... but the Aryans came in and wiped it out. This is how our history begins.

We can't go before this epoch.

No records.

P.S. These so called Bharayymundz in India are all Irani priests. Look at the route the Aryans took. Where the hell is @vsdoc when you need him. He tries to align withe the Indians, but he refuses to accept the truth:

1727049222598.webp
 
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That's what I meant. The IVC was there, possibly for millennia before.....in Moenjodaro Harrpa etc..... but the Aryans came in and wiped it out. This is how our history begins.

We can't go before this epoch.

No records.

P.S. These so called Bharayymundz in India are all Irani priests. Look at the route the Aryans took. Where the hell is @vsdoc when you need him. He tries to align withe the Indians, but he refuses to accept the truth:

View attachment 66464
The seal found in Iraq is one record from the IVC preserved outside the region. Also, if we did proper archaeological surveys I’m sure tons of things would come up.

Now that the genetic data is there, the Pakistanis government should confidently to the surveys and refute the Indians and their claims of the people of Pakistan all being decent from foreigners. But also we would have to change our own narrative that the Muslims came to the region, but like the Egyptians, we were a distinct peoples before the Arabs, Irans and Central Asians came, without our own civilization.

It’s just laziness to start with Muhammad Bin Qasim.
 
The seal found in Iraq is one record from the IVC preserved outside the region. Also, if we did proper archaeological surveys I’m sure tons of things would come up.

Now that the genetic data is there, the Pakistanis government should confidently to the surveys and refute the Indians and their claims of the people of Pakistan all being decent from foreigners. But also we would have to change our own narrative that the Muslims came to the region, but like the Egyptians, we were a distinct peoples before the Arabs, Irans and Central Asians came, without our own civilization.

It’s just laziness to start with Muhammad Bin Qasim.
Our prehistoric and ancient ancestors are from Ukraine! That's where it all started.
 
David Reich is a sober, serious researcher who avoids controversy. He is not willing to say or write anything that contradicts the rampage on which his erstwhile partners on the Rakhigarhi genetic study have gone.

Coincidentally, this popped up just earlier on my podcast feed, posting for benefit of the members here if they are interested. He goes into much regarding South Asia (IVC, ANI, ASI and much else) as well and very correlated to discussion on this thread:

 
Coincidentally, this popped up just earlier on my podcast feed, posting for benefit of the members here if they are interested. He goes into much regarding South Asia (IVC, ANI, ASI and much else) as well and very correlated to discussion on this thread:

Haven’t watched it yet, but thanks for sharing. Considering the fail to red of our governments to do proper archaeology, this researcher is helping to peel back the history of South Asia and humbling all peoples of the region.
 
Our prehistoric and ancient ancestors are from Ukraine! That's where it all started.
All or even most of them? Of the IVC ancestors, many died, but enough survived to be the base population we the people of Pakistan descended from. Sure there was mixture with Aryans, but that’s what happens in South Asia, peoples and cultures are assimilated to one degree or another into the region, while new cultures and faiths develop out of the region, such as Buddhism and Sikhism.
 
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Haven’t watched it yet, but thanks for sharing. Considering the fail to red of our governments to do proper archaeology, this researcher is helping to peel back the history of South Asia and humbling all peoples of the region.

I didn't notice, but you posted a clip from it just a few replies earlier too.

All or even most of them? Of the IVC ancestors, many died, but enough survived to be the base population we the people of Pakistan descended from.

The Brahui language! One theory is they are the last (and only) northern Dravidian remnant...language wise....from essentially an IVC lineage. Genetically they have no real difference to surrounding Pakistanis with the admixture nowadays.....but phenomenon of upstream language retention+evolution past downstream admixture is seen in number of other places of the world too.

The other theory is they are of a later iron age reverse (Dravidian language speaking) migration from central/southern India....and again with later admixture from ANI et al for relative coalescence with rest of Pakistani people

But even without Brahui language, yes there is ASI DNA in pretty much all Pakistani people.
 
I didn't notice, but you posted a clip from it just a few replies earlier too.



The Brahui language! One theory is they are the last (and only) northern Dravidian remnant...language wise....from essentially an IVC lineage. Genetically they have no real difference to surrounding Pakistanis with the admixture nowadays.....but phenomenon of upstream language retention+evolution past downstream admixture is seen in number of other places of the world too.

The other theory is they are of a later iron age reverse (Dravidian language speaking) migration from central/southern India....and again with later admixture from ANI et al for relative coalescence with rest of Pakistani people

But even without Brahui language, yes there is ASI DNA in pretty much all Pakistani people.
What is the caste system like in the Brahui population? Do they still retain a distinct culture or have them retained their language but lost their unique culture?
 
What is the caste system like in the Brahui population? Do they still retain a distinct culture or have them retained their language but lost their unique culture?

No idea about the social layers below the religion/culture that has synthesized in largely same way as their Baloch + Pathan neighbours.

Each culture is unique in end, especially if you keep a highly distinct language in the end though.

Lot of sources basically give Brahui as retaining only about 15% of Dravidian vocabulary through its original substrate.... and rest heavily taken from or influenced by Baloch, Pathan and other Indo-European languages and their earlier substrate in the area.

But generally most linguists agree its Dravidian originally given the morphology retained (the grammar structure, especially the agglutination that is distinct feature of Dravidian).

This was in my archive for Brahui:

In a piece written some years ago, the political commentator and writer Mohan Guruswamy talks of meeting Baloch children on a visit to New Delhi. The children were evidently surprised when they discovered that uru and arisi were words that meant village and rice in their tongue as well as in Tamil, a language that Mohan Guruswamy understood. In the same piece, Guruswamy also talks of his father, who served in Quetta before Partition, hearing a language spoken by some of the employees that sounded vaguely like Tamil. The children and the employees in question were both Brahui speakers.

Brahui is a Dravidian language spoken by close to 2 million mostly in the Pakistani province of Balochistan. Besides Pakistani, small groups of Brahui speakers are also found in Irani Balochistan, Afghanistan and in and around the Marw oasis in Turkmenistan. The language doesn’t have any connections with those spoken around it, but is connected to the Dravidian tongues of distant southern India. Another example of a language that is unrelated to its neighbours would be Magyar, spoken in Hungary in central Europe. Magyar is related to Finnish, the language of Finland, which is at a considerable distance from Hungary and shares no borders with it.

The Brahuis as a people first appear in history around the 17th century when the Khanate of Kalat became an independent principality. Prior to that, it is conjectured that they were under Mughal rule though very little historical evidence exists. In attempting to explain to how a Dravidian language came to be in an area completely surrounded by Indo-Aryan languages, some experts opine that the Brahuis are the descendants of the people of the Indus Valley civilization which is supposed to have been Dravidian. When the civilization disappeared for reasons that are still obscure, a group made its way westward to Balochistan where they preserved their ancient language. Another theory contends that the Brahuis moved to their current area around the 12th century. Conclusive proof exists for neither theory.

The Khanate of Kalat existed from around 1666 right up to 1955 when it was absorbed into the Pakistani state. It was founded by Mir Ahmad Khan Qambrani Baloch and its last ruler was Mir Ahmad Yar Khan Ahmadzai Baloch. The Khans of Kalat were Brahui speakers in private, but preferred to make Baloch their court language as it was the language of the majority.

The word ‘brahui’ itself is non-Brahui in origin. It is borrowed from the Siraiki braho which is a Siraiki rendering of Ibrahim. The name appears to have become current probably a thousand years ago when Brahuis are said to have moved into their current region. But of course, this is merely a supposition and lacks substantial evidence.

At present, twenty-seven tribes constitute the Brahui universe. But not all those who identify as Brahuis are necessarily Brahui speakers. Brahui is also a term for a group of tribes—some speak Brahui, some are bilingual in Brahui and Baloch, and some are exclusively Baloch-speaking. A Brahui tribesman and a Brahui speaker do not actually refer to the same group of people. This puzzling situation has resulted in inaccurate estimates of Brahui speakers and what numbers exist are at best guesstimates.

That Brahui was different from the languages spoken around it was first noticed by the British as they scythed their way through the subcontinent. In 1816, H. Pottinger first mentioned it. In 1880, E. Trumpp published the first scientific study of the language and identified it as Dravidian. It is today classified under the North Dravidian sub-group along with languages such as Kurukh or Oraon (spoken in Jharkhand and West Bengal) and Malto (spoken in Bihar and West Bengal).

When one looks at the many similarities between certain Brahui words and words used in other Dravidian languages, the connection is clear. In addition to arisi and uru, a few more Brahui words that are clearly Dravidian in origin are listed below:
Today – Aino (Brahui), Innu (Tamil, Malayalam)
You – Ne (Brahui), Ne (Tamil, Malayalam)
Come – Baa (Brahui), Vaa (Tamil, Malayalam)
Snore – Khurkao (Brahui), Khurtai (Tamil)
Eye – Xan (Brahui), Kan (Tamil)
Stone – Xal (Brahui), Kal (Tamil)
Milk – Pal (Brahui), Pal (Tamil)
News – Haval (Brahui), Thahaval (Tamil)

For its numbering system, Brahui draws from a Dravidian source for two (irat akin to the Kannada eradu) and three (musit akin to the Tamil moonu and the Kannada mooru) but from four onwards, the words are clearly Indo-Aryan borrowings (char, paanch and so on). The Brahui word for one (asit) seems to have no connection with any other language. Owing to its long isolation from other Dravidian languages, Brahui morphology has drawn greatly from those around it. Some experts opine that only about 15% of its vocabulary is now Dravidian, with the remaining drawn from Balochi, Persian, Sindhi, Urdu and other languages in its vicinity. Brahui’s vowel system is drawn entirely from Baloch. But experts have also noted that Baloch words, too, have been drawn from Brahui.

Owing to the fact that Brahui is essentially a spoken language, and its speakers are mostly illiterate—the literary tradition is rudimentary. The first written work in Brahui is Tuhfat-al-ajaib (The Gift of Wonders) written around 1759-60 by Malikdad Gharsin Qalati. The original manuscript has been lost and what exists is drawn from a 1916 reprint. In the late 19th century, a script was also created for Brahui based on the Perso-Arabic system that was in use for the other languages of the region. Later, an Englishman, Sir Denis Brays, wrote the first grammar of the language. Publishing efforts in Brahui have been intermittent primarily on account of poor literacy levels. The struggle continues.

Today, Brahui is listed by Unesco as an ‘endangered’ language. Its speakers seem to be dwindling and are being replaced by the dominant Baloch owing to livelihood issues and the lack of state support. The Pakistani state has awarded prime status to Urdu and to an extent marginalized the other native languages of the region due to political and historical reasons. That Brahui has survived for so many centuries is no small wonder. It would be a pity if it were allowed to die out.

Karthik Venkatesh is an editor with a publishing firm and a freelance writer.
Comments are welcome at [email protected]
 
Hi,

That is me---pakistan---afghanistan---tajikstan---uzbekistan---turkmenistan---jammu kashmir---NO IRANIAN---barely touching east punjab boundary line---.
As the Pashtuns say, they have been Pashtun for 5000 years. Aryans must have come through and gotten their behinds kicked to keeping going through. Pashtuns didn’t let them linger and try to ”mix” with the Pashtuns. Heck you even have a mountain range called the Hindu Kush.
 
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As the Pashtuns say, they have been Pashtun for 5000 years. Aryans must have come through and gotten their behinds kicked to keeping going through. Pashtuns didn’t letting linger and try to ”mix” with the Pashtuns. Heck you even have a mountain range called the Hindu Kush.
Hi,

It was easier to ra-pe women folks of the flatlands---than in the mountains---.

You cross over from one valley to another and another and disppear---people in the flatlands had nowhere to run.

All invaders made the mountains just a pass-thru region for their safety--so the purity of the race stayed mostly intact in those regions---.
 
Africa. 100%

That is all humans currently alive today.

Why pick an arbitrary intermediate point in history?
Hi,

If it was african genome---the genome would show---.

Most slaves coming to pakistan, india region were castrated slaves---.

Africa has nothing to do with all the humans currently alive today---.
 

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