Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians

"Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians"

This title doesn't make any sense because population that made IVC is thousands of years older then IVC.

The ancient skeletons from Pakistan were not from IVC proper. Some of so called IVC skeletons were found on border of Iran.

From Iran Balochistan to south India had same base population with various admixture mix between ancient Zagrosian from Iran and ASI. ASI is mix of various ancient south east Indian population that moved north up to Iran and Afghanistan. Zagrosian farmers moved east and south from Iran. This is why today middle caste dravidians tend to have higher zagrosian admixture then low caste dravidians who tend have higher ASI.
 
It is like saying Prussian achievements are not German just because Germany is not in charge of Prussia anymore

The geographical core of IVC is in modern day Pakistan. It is problematic to claim inheritance to something that anyone has little clue about it. It is a civilization that has little documentation and little in the way of achievements compared to its peers in China and Middle East.

Keep in mind the most of Indus Valley was somewhat of a wasteland until British built the canal system in late 19th century

On a side note - Why doesn't Pakistan have history textbooks ? Feel free to correct me here
I am merely stating the actual heart of what was the IVC is today called Pakistan. Its not said with pride or have a jab at anyone. Pakistan leaders have shown intense incompetence in managing the country and the thought of them managing or trying to preserve this vital link to our history is a concern to me. Facts are facts the soil where the IVC was is today called Pakistan.....
 
I am merely stating the actual heart of what was the IVC is today called Pakistan. Its not said with pride or have a jab at anyone. Pakistan leaders have shown intense incompetence in managing the country and the thought of them managing or trying to preserve this vital link to our history is a concern to me. Facts are facts the soil where the IVC was is today called Pakistan.....

I have no problem with you wanting to associate with IVC. You can blame Pakistani leaders. I think most of countrymen would be uninterested in the concept. I wish you good luck trying to get your countrymen on board.
 
"Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians"

This title doesn't make any sense because population that made IVC is thousands of years older then IVC.

The ancient skeletons from Pakistan were not from IVC proper. Some of so called IVC skeletons were found on border of Iran.

From Iran Balochistan to south India had same base population with various admixture mix between ancient Zagrosian from Iran and ASI. ASI is mix of various ancient south east Indian population that moved north up to Iran and Afghanistan. Zagrosian farmers moved east and south from Iran. This is why today middle caste dravidians tend to have higher zagrosian admixture then low caste dravidians who tend have higher ASI.
Highly questionable and tendentious.
 
Highly questionable and tendentious.

“The ancient Harappan genome, sequenced and described in the journal Cell, was compared to the DNA of modern South Asians, revealing that the people of the IVC were the primary ancestors of most living Indians. Both modern South Asian DNA and the Harappan genome have a telltale mixture of ancient Iranian DNA and a smattering of Southeast Asian hunter-gatherer lineages. "Ancestry like that in the IVC individuals is the primary ancestry source in South Asia today,” co-author David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School, said in a statement.”

Ancient Iranian here mean Zagrosian.

Ancient Zagrosian and ASI mix is older then IVC. Middle caste Dravidians tend to be more Zagrosian shifted then tribal or dalit dravidians.
 
It is problematic to claim inheritance to something that anyone has little clue about it. It is a civilization that has little documentation and little in the way of achievements compared to its peers in China and Middle East.


This is a better more cute attempt to try and dissuade Pakistanis from ivc, it would apply to Indians as well🙄

An inheritance of 50 dollars or 5 million dollars is still an inheritance, so nothing is problematic about the claim, the claim is simply under your feet

As to it's achievements look below, everything that has been discovered has happened without really trying


Though you do raise an interesting challenge, how should Pakistanis frame the ivc, that gets tricky, I would propose some mild but definite cultural and educational exposure to the masses, just enough for the average guy to be conscious that there was such a thing as ivc in the way people know there is a stone henge in Britain



For now simply gathering the facts is the actual focus
 
I have no problem with you wanting to associate with IVC. You can blame Pakistani leaders. I think most of countrymen would be uninterested in the concept. I wish you good luck trying to get your countrymen on board.


See previous post, you are right, most people will not care, it's always about the small amount who do 😜
 
Now that the genetic data is there, the Pakistanis government should confidently to the surveys and refute the Indians and their claims of the people of Pakistan all being decent from foreigners. But also we would have to change our own narrative that the Muslims came to the region, but like the Egyptians, we were a distinct peoples before the Arabs, Irans and Central Asians came, without our own civilization.
That'll be ironic when the genetic data is from the remains found in Rakhigarhi in India.

If you truly want to short circuit the brain of some people do mention the Hindu history of the region, see how quickly they jump to "Buddha" or they argue the past is irrelevant. All this talk amounts to nothing.
Aryan invasion and the caste system documented in the genetic record. With the hierarchy and discrimination that hierarchy based on innate character enforces, this basically becomes a form of Racism.
Aryans and caste system is off by at least a thousand years. It was mostly an administrative system.
 
I'm
If you truly want to short circuit the brain of some people do mention the Hindu history of the region, see how quickly they jump to "Buddha" or they argue the past is irrelevant. All this talk amounts to nothing.


If there is any loose Hindu related artefacts it would be Pakistan's 😜

This won't short circuit anything

Post partition Pakistan had many many issues to grapple with, the solely Islamic identity was the one that could be projected as it was the context of the time, it still is, but now you can add the fuller flavour

Plus no one knew about ivc then

I can understand the Pak state for this

But if they want to develop tourism this could be ideal, Saudi are doing similar
 
“The ancient Harappan genome, sequenced and described in the journal Cell, was compared to the DNA of modern South Asians, revealing that the people of the IVC were the primary ancestors of most living Indians. Both modern South Asian DNA and the Harappan genome have a telltale mixture of ancient Iranian DNA and a smattering of Southeast Asian hunter-gatherer lineages. "Ancestry like that in the IVC individuals is the primary ancestry source in South Asia today,” co-author David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School, said in a statement.”

Ancient Iranian here mean Zagrosian.

Ancient Zagrosian and ASI mix is older then IVC. Middle caste Dravidians tend to be more Zagrosian shifted then tribal or dalit dravidians.
<sigh>
Here we go again -
Round and round the mulberry bush.

It is boring to to watch as some aspiring showman proceeds to re-hash what is already known, and is then re-crafted as a strikingly original scientific waypoint, and finally, with a magnificent, circus ring-master's flourish, given some ethno-nationalist twist and presented to an audience swooning in awe.

Very briefly, there is only one single difference between the narrative in the post cited, and what has been the current scientific consensus on the very broad process of genetic descent in the sub-continent.

First, the narrative that is standard.

1) Migrants from the Iranian plateau and the uplands to its east, carrying knowledge of agriculture, drifted down the western slopes of the Indus Valley, forming larger and larger settlements and mingling with the existing hunter-gatherers population to form the basic genetic profile that marked the IVC.
These processes presumably took place earlier than 3500 - 3300 BC.
2) As is generally accepted, the IVC was at its prime of developed existence between 2600 and 1900 BC. Increasingly less organised remnants have been dated to around 1300 BC.
ALL these dates are indicative, very broadly indicative.
3) Early incursions by migrants from the stepped, from the BMAC, may have commenced around 1500 BC, but that is an approximation proposed by linguists.
4) To return to the point, today's sub-continent is broadly described as a mix of Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. There have been no violent objections to this, in Academe.
The ASI profile is found to be a mixture of the IVC profile, already containing a proportion of hunter-gatherers, with more hunter-gatherer
stock.
The ANI profile has the IVC profile,plus hunter-gatherer stock, plus a difference - the addition of steppe migrant genetic elements.
-------------
That is the big picture that has been for some time.
Does it differ from the narrative of the cited post? No, flourishes and embellishments apart.
What of these flourishes and embellishments?
They deserve another post.
Put another way, people posting, such as Yours Truly, do NOT deserve another laborious session of eye-strain, striving to present complex issues in a simple way with the aid of a SmartPhone keyboard.
 
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<sigh>
Here we go again -
Round and round the mulberry bush.

It is boring to to watch as some aspiring showman proceeds to re-hash what is already known, and is then re-crafted as a strikingly original scientific waypoint, and finally, with a magnificent, circus ring-master's flourish, given some ethno-nationalist twist and presented to an audience swooning in awe.

Very briefly, there is only one single difference between the narrative in the post cited, and what has been the current scientific consensus on the very broad process of genetic descent in the sub-continent.

First, the narrative that is standard.

1) Migrants from the Iranian plateau and the uplands to its east, carrying knowledge of agriculture, drifted down the western slopes of the Indus Valley, forming larger and larger settlements and mingling with the existing hunter-gatherers population

What ethno? My point was that its unlikely that before IVC everyone in south asia was just ASI. Zagrosian and ASI admixture is believed to be 8-10K years old.
 
What ethno? My point was that its unlikely that before IVC everyone in south asia was just ASI. Zagrosian and ASI admixture is believed to be 8-10K years old.
Consigned to response along with other embellishments.
 
“The ancient Harappan genome, sequenced and described in the journal Cell, was compared to the DNA of modern South Asians, revealing that the people of the IVC were the primary ancestors of most living Indians. Both modern South Asian DNA and the Harappan genome have a telltale mixture of ancient Iranian DNA and a smattering of Southeast Asian hunter-gatherer lineages. "Ancestry like that in the IVC individuals is the primary ancestry source in South Asia today,” co-author David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School, said in a statement.”

Ancient Iranian here mean Zagrosian.

Ancient Zagrosian and ASI mix is older then IVC. Middle caste Dravidians tend to be more Zagrosian shifted then tribal or dalit dravidians.
What is middle class Dravidian. And do you have any research link for your last statement.
 
What is middle class Dravidian. And do you have any research link for your last statement.

In south India there are brahmins>land owners/warrior>dalit tribal castes.

Land owning/warrior caste dravidians have more zagrosian admixture then tribal/dalit dravidians.

You see in Bahubali movie heroes are middle caste dravidians and villains army are shown as tribal/dalit.

Google is your friend.
 

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