Iran - Israel/US War: Israel-US declare war on Iran, Iran responds

[mangekyo]

The Japanese and Koreans built up their own countries. Yes, they had US help, but their cultures are very success oriented. There are countless US allies that have languished in third world conditions including many Latin American countries, the Philippines, African dictatorships, and a lot of that has to do with their internal systems and cultural values.

But I agree, China does suck in terms of building up its allies. Part of it is because the US, because of it's dominance, took most of the successful countries as allies, including Japan, Europe, Australia, etc. It wasn't that the US made them successful, but they were already successful independently.

Who knows what the next 50 years will bring though. There are countries that are following China now and are modernizing rapidly. Ethiopia, Cambodia, for example are modernizing very rapidly and much of that investment is from China. There may also be major shifts in the alliance systems where many former US allies will move towards neutrality or may even start gravitating towards China in the next few decades.

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You’re kind of proving my point here. Even you admit China sucks at building up allies, and that most of its “partners” aren’t success stories. Ethiopia and Cambodia modernizing is not the same as building a Japan or South Korea, it’s just a bit of infrastructure and investment, nothing close to lifting a country into true prosperity or independence. Pakistan is still dependent on IMF loans to survive.

And let’s not rewrite history: Japan and Korea didn’t just succeed on their own. They were devastated after WWII and the Korean War. US support, military protection, markets, capital, and tech transfer was absolutely decisive. Without that, their “success-oriented culture” wouldn’t have had the chance to get anywhere.

I’m no China hater or Asia hater, actually I prefer the East over the West in many ways. But the track record is very clear.

And since you brought up “culture,” let’s look at Iran. Iran’s economy was one of the fastest-growing in the world while it was aligned with the West. After the revolution and turning east, look now, poverty, water and electricity shortages, constant crisis. Same people, same culture, completely different results. That should tell you it isn’t about culture, it’s about which direction you align with.

 

[lightning f57]

Well one reason could be to exit their role in the Gaza talks and join remainder GCC in washing their hands off Palestine forever.

They dont want to wash their hands this gives them legitimacy they are vying for influence across the arab world.

I think they were caught pants down, the US might have even turned off their PAC3 air defences.

 

[Arash]

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You guys still think a deal is possible with these people who have used diplomacy repeatedly as a a ruse? They're not interested in making deals, sanctions will not be removed. Zarifites and khamenei are just as big of cucks as the pgcc emirs. A deal with the US means turning into Syria or now we can add Qatar - jews bombing Tehran whenever they feel like it.

No and that's another wake up call for all !

 

[Arash]

You should post that in n Zarif’s X feed to see how he responds.

Oh it's pretty much easy to guess...... Har har har...

 

[nang2]

You’re kind of proving my point here. Even you admit China sucks at building up allies, and that most of its “partners” aren’t success stories. Ethiopia and Cambodia modernizing is not the same as building a Japan or South Korea, it’s just a bit of infrastructure and investment, nothing close to lifting a country into true prosperity or independence. Pakistan is still dependent on IMF loans to survive.

And let’s not rewrite history: Japan and Korea didn’t just succeed on their own. They were devastated after WWII and the Korean War. US support, military protection, markets, capital, and tech transfer was absolutely decisive. Without that, their “success-oriented culture” wouldn’t have had the chance to get anywhere.

I’m no China hater or Asia hater, actually I prefer the East over the West in many ways. But the track record is very clear.

And since you brought up “culture,” let’s look at Iran. Iran’s economy was one of the fastest-growing in the world while it was aligned with the West. After the revolution and turning east, look now, poverty, water and electricity shortages, constant crisis. Same people, same culture, completely different results. That should tell you it isn’t about culture, it’s about which direction you align with.

Please, just surrender. Why all the charade?! And, bring back the Shah, too. BTW, in case you didn't know, China and the Shah used to have a good working relationship before Iran revolution.

 

[tower9]

You’re kind of proving my point here. Even you admit China sucks at building up allies, and that most of its “partners” aren’t success stories. Ethiopia and Cambodia modernizing is not the same as building a Japan or South Korea, it’s just a bit of infrastructure and investment, nothing close to lifting a country into true prosperity or independence. Pakistan is still dependent on IMF loans to survive.

And let’s not rewrite history: Japan and Korea didn’t just succeed on their own. They were devastated after WWII and the Korean War. US support, military protection, markets, capital, and tech transfer was absolutely decisive. Without that, their “success-oriented culture” wouldn’t have had the chance to get anywhere.

I’m no China hater or Asia hater, actually I prefer the East over the West in many ways. But the track record is very clear.

And since you brought up “culture,” let’s look at Iran. Iran’s economy was one of the fastest-growing in the world while it was aligned with the West. After the revolution and turning east, look now, poverty, water and electricity shortages, constant crisis. Same people, same culture, completely different results. That should tell you it isn’t about culture, it’s about which direction you align with.

Your assumption is ridiculous because you assume that China and the US have been in the same position for the last 50 years and China just sat on its hands doing nothing while the US single handedly built up its allies.

The global system has been dominated by the US for the last 80 years. China has been focused on self development within that system. Now it is emerging as its own pole.

Also, Japan was a great industrial power before WW2. Even though it was devastated, it had the social resources to quickly rebuild. Even if the US didn't help it, Japan would've re-emerged as a great industrial power on its own.

Lastly, you actually think it's China's fault that Iran is under-developed. Are you crazy? Are Iran's policymaking bodies dominated by Chinese government minders and advisors? Iran literally pissed off every one of it's neighbors for 40 years, challenged Israel and the West (literally the owners of the global financial system for the last 80 years), conducted a ridiculous policy of pretending to build nukes while making itself a target, then you are going to blame China for your government's utter incompetence and stupidity? You need to check in a mental institution.

 

[mangekyo]

Of course, why would you say it when you don't even see it? BTW, you just used the word "help". Now you start to twist it into "actually built up into a successful state".

You’re fixating on the word “help” to dodge the point. Context matters. I asked where China’s so-called “help” has ever turned an ally into a successful state. Loans and token projects aren’t the same thing. The US has examples (Japan, South Korea, Germany). China has none. Just look at Korea. North under China is starving, South under the US is a global powerhouse. That’s the difference.

 

[Watandar]

They dont want to wash their hands this gives them legitimacy they are vying for influence across the arab world.

I think they were caught pants down, the US might have even turned off their PAC3 air defences.

The Arab world is old news for GCC, esp Saudi or Qatar or UAE. They have set their sights on the globe now, with focus on the West. Its why they have been on a shopping spree buying hotels, teams, properties, businesses in the West. Qatar was still involved in Palestine but may have grown tired of its role and wishing to exit in a way that blame goes to someone else.

 

[Tamerlane]

You are comparing Apples to Oranges. We have been living in a Western dominated world for the last few centuries. The US has dominated the global financial, political and economic structure for the last several decades. During this time, China was mainly just focusing on developing itself and escaping poverty within this US dominated system.

Now China is emerging as a major superpower in its own right and is creating it's own systems that are independent of the West. Countries are starting to integrate themselves into this alternative system amidst a collapsing global order. We will see in 50 years what countries thrive. I think there will be a number of major countries that will thrive under a China led system, alternatively, many US allies are heading towards economic collapse including former imperial powers like Japan, the UK, France, etc.

During its decades of being in the American camp Pakistan managed to stay poverty stricken, apart from a few generals and politicians. I hope that now that it’s pretending to be in the Chinese camp somehow China will be able to help it develop. Make Pakistan a shiny example of China’s ability to pull countries out of poverty into success.

 

[Frogen]

Yeah but that’s the whole point, man. China isn’t some savior waiting to hand Iran an economic lifeline. They’ve shown over and over they play by US rules. The only reason they’re even buying our oil is because they get it for next to nothing and US lets them. That’s not help, that’s a controlled bleed. Same way the US let us use Iraqi banks: enough oxygen to keep us alive.

This idea that Iran could suddenly step in as the world’s new low-tech manufacturer just doesn’t hold water. No major project is going to happen without US approval, and the track record proves it.

And which country is it that China has actually helped? Seriously, name one. The US at least has successful client states in Japan, South Korea, even parts of Europe that it built up because it suited their interests. Who does China have? Nobody. Same with Russia. In fact, if we’re being honest, Russia has screwed us over more times than Israel and the US combined.

Look at Korea. Same people, same resources. Which one turned into a global powerhouse, and which one is still stuck in famine? That’s the difference between being a pawn of the US vs. being a pawn of China.

China’s rise has been so fast that a lot of people forget: twenty years ago China’s GDP was actually behind France, only ranking 6th in the world. Back then even the navy couldn’t realistically challenge Japan. Meanwhile, the U.S. has been the world’s number one economy since the late 19th century, and with two world wars plus the wave of decolonization that followed, all the countries with potential, military, economic, and technological advantages basically ended up as America’s friends.

So you’re right — America’s friends are more successful than China’s. But that’s not because China can’t help its friends; it’s because China can only build strategic ties with the countries the U.S. doesn’t want. We simply haven’t had enough time yet to really influence America’s circle of allies.

Many of the countries struggling economically today are in that position mainly because of U.S. sanctions or because U.S.-led globalization deliberately marginalized them — North Korea, Russia, Iran, Cuba, and so on. Sure, if Iran just wanted an easier life, unconditional surrender to the U.S. or Israel might bring some short-term benefits, but it would be at the cost of Iran’s culture, religion, and traditions. And let’s be real: the U.S. and Israel will never allow an independent-minded Iran that dares to resist to exist. So Iran’s resistance isn’t for China, and it isn’t about “rewards” — it’s about your own dignity. China isn’t Iran’s savior; our resources are limited, and we can only back those who have the resolve to fight. Putin made that decision, and China is willing to confront the West to support Russia. But has Iran truly made that decision yet?

And by the way, North Korea is not China’s little brother. Pyongyang only really listens to Moscow, and honestly, DPRK–China relations are not that great.

 

[tower9]

You’re fixating on the word “help” to dodge the point. Context matters. I asked where China’s so-called “help” has ever turned an ally into a successful state. Loans and token projects aren’t the same thing. The US has examples (Japan, South Korea, Germany). China has none. Just look at Korea. North under China is starving, South under the US is a global powerhouse. That’s the difference.

North Korea doesn't follow China's advice. China has advised North Korea to switch to a market economy for decades, the North refuses. China has advised North Korea to stop hereditary rule, they refuse. China was against them having nukes, they defied it.

 

[ShapurII]

Please, just surrender. Why all the charade?! And, bring back the Shah, too. BTW, in case you didn't know, China and the Shah used to have a good working relationship before Iran revolution.

That isn't surprising though.
China has better relations with pro-US states than countries who actually need China.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

 

[nang2]

During its decades of being in the American camp Pakistan managed to stay poverty stricken, apart from a few generals and politicians. I hope that now that it’s pretending to be in the Chinese camp somehow China will be able to help it develop. Make Pakistan a shiny example of China’s ability to pull countries out of poverty into success.

The help between countries is never intended to make the other country great. All help is self-help. It is up to the receiving side to seize that opportunity and turn into to an invigorating and constructing power of its own country. The "help" from the US has helped many countries become prosperous but also ruined many others, too. The way the receiving side uses that help matters a great deal.

 

[nang2]

That isn't surprising though.
China has better relations with pro-US states than countries who actually need China.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

China doesn't run charity. Why do you want China help those that need China but give absolutely no benefit to China? Such a help will only alienate the relationship because the moment the help slacks, they start to hate you.

 

[mangekyo]

Your assumption is ridiculous because you assume that China and the US have been in the same position for the last 50 years and China just sat on its hands doing nothing while the US single handedly built up its allies.

The global system has been dominated by the US for the last 80 years. China has been focused on self development within that system. Now it is emerging as its own pole.

Also, Japan was a great industrial power before WW2. Even though it was devastated, it had the social resources to quickly rebuild. Even if the US didn't help it, Japan would've re-emerged as a great industrial power on its own.

Lastly, you actually think it's China's fault that Iran is under-developed. Are you crazy? Are Iran's policymaking bodies dominated by Chinese government minders and advisors? Iran literally pissed off every one of it's neighbors for 40 years, challenged Israel and the West (literally the owners of the global financial system for the last 80 years), conducted a ridiculous policy of pretending to build nukes while making itself a target, then you are going to blame China for your government's utter incompetence and stupidity? You need to check in a mental institution.

I never said China is the reason Iran is underdeveloped. Don’t put words in my mouth. I was discussing with another member about a hypothetical where Iran somehow becomes a low-tech manufacturer for China, and I pointed out how stupid that is given China’s history with its allies and its obedience to US sanctions. In that kind of doomsday scenario, I said it’s simply better to choose the West since their track record of actually building up countries is stronger. Then the other guy twisted it into some nonsense about racism.

And no, Japan wouldn’t have magically re-emerged on its own after WWII—it was flattened. US protection, capital, and market access were decisive. Just look at North vs. South Korea if you think “culture alone” explains it. Same people, same resources—one side backed by China is still starving, the other backed by the US is a global powerhouse. Iran’s economy before and after switching from West to East is another clear example. The list goes on.