Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[Michael]

Wish Iran had J-10C with PL-15. Plus some AWACS and ground-based counter-stealth radar. This can help shoot down F-35.

The air attack chain centered on the J-10CE and PL-15E is a microcosm of a modern, information-based, and networked warfare system. It's not simply a matter of fighter jets and air-to-air missiles.

This is a massive expenditure. This deal is large enough to reshape the international diplomatic landscape. It's extremely difficult for Iran.

What would say Saudi Arabia, and UAE?. What would say Israel?. Would China loose all three markets for a limited arms deal?.

No. China wouldn´t sell those advanced jets to Irán. It is not a problem of money (IRI is even selling some central bank gold for that purchase).

For China, the J-10CE is not an advanced fighter jet. Selling it to a non-hostile country through normal channels poses no political or national security obstacles for China.

 

[SABRE]

A leader leads by example. This man certainly doesn’t have any self discipline. All you need is two meals a day.
What an embarrassment. This fat POS is the leading the IRAF?

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Reading the translation: Fells like he is claiming credit for something he had no part in, and promising something, which, as things stands, he cannot deliver. Also, where was this MiG-29 (screaming for retirement) when the Israeli Air Force was running amok?

 

[Flotilla]

For China, the J-10CE is not an advanced fighter jet. Selling it to a non-hostile country through normal channels poses no political or national security obstacles for China.

I agree China have much more advanced aircrafts. The powerful J16 and even last versions of the J11/15 family can easily outmatch the J10 or export variant CE.

But A J10CE with PL15 (even if that PL it is E version of it) and even worse with AEW/AWACS&C would outclass all entire Middle East air forces, even israeli one (AFAIK Israel have not anything in service like PL15 with 200 km range).

AFAIK none of the Middle east airforces have MBDA Meteor or equivalent missiles... So could you imagine what would say Salman King of such a deal?, and Qatar or EAU?. Even Netanyahu would call inmediately Trump to put some secondary sanctions to China.

 

[Michael]

AFAIK none of the Middle east airforces have MBDA Meteor or equivalent missiles... So could you imagine what would say Salman King of such a deal?, and Qatar or EAU?. Even Netanyahu would call inmediately Trump to put some secondary sanctions to China.

In the realm of arms exports, no third-party country can exert pressure on China. The only issue lies with the transacting parties.

For example, if China is preparing to sell an "advanced" weapons system to a certain country (meaning it has passed domestic political and national security assessments within China), no country, including the United States, can pressure China to abandon the sale. However, they can pressure the receiving country to abandon the purchase of Chinese weapons systems.

If Iran is willing to purchase Chinese fighter jets and their associated air combat systems, China is fully capable of balancing the concerns of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other countries, and is also fully capable of ignoring protests from countries like Israel. However, we cannot guarantee whether Iran can withstand the pressure from the United States and Israel.

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The deal between China and Iran concerning fighter jets and their associated air combat systems has been circulating on the internet for far too long. We generally believe that the real resistance comes from within Iran itself, not from third countries.

 

[Flotilla]

In the realm of arms exports, no third-party country can exert pressure on China. The only issue lies with the transacting parties.

For example, if China is preparing to sell an "advanced" weapons system to a certain country (meaning it has passed domestic political and national security assessments within China), no country, including the United States, can pressure China to abandon the sale. However, they can pressure the receiving country to abandon the purchase of Chinese weapons systems.

If Iran is willing to purchase Chinese fighter jets and their associated air combat systems, China is fully capable of balancing the concerns of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other countries, and is also fully capable of ignoring protests from countries like Israel. However, we cannot guarantee whether Iran can withstand the pressure from the United States and Israel.

=============================

The deal between China and Iran concerning fighter jets and their associated air combat systems has been circulating on the internet for far too long. We generally believe that the real resistance comes from within Iran itself, not from third countries.

The real question it is, Why IRIAF bought the Su35 when something out of there (J10CE) have performed so brilliantly?.

And the answer is there. For example, if China sells J10 (or other advanced jets) to IRIAF then Saudi arabia would never knock again the door of China as intermediary for diplomatic solutions, for example.

And let´s be honest. China have been sensitive in the deal of US tariffs rebate for some rare minerals, let alone to have complaints from at least 4 countries in the Middle East (Israel, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Jordania), not to mention even Egypt or Turkey.

If China wants to keep his status quo in the region, must avoid change equation, and that sell would do it.

And Russia does because Putin himself falled in the same category than Iran or North Korea. So that makes all in all "brothers of misery".

 

[Ali_Baba]

The real question it is, Why IRIAF bought the Su35 when something out of there (J10CE) have performed so brilliantly?.

And the answer is there. For example, if China sells J10 (or other advanced jets) to IRIAF then Saudi arabia would never knock again the door of China as intermediary for diplomatic solutions, for example.

And let´s be honest. China have been sensitive in the deal of US tariffs rebate for some rare minerals, let alone to have complaints from at least 4 countries in the Middle East (Israel, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Jordania), not to mention even Egypt or Turkey.

If China wants to keep his status quo in the region, must avoid change equation, and that sell would do it.

And Russia does because Putin himself falled in the same category than Iran or North Korea. So that makes all in all "brothers of misery".

There is nothing to back this assertion about other countries of the middle east being part of why Iran has not purchased new aircraft from China. You have to look at the level of support China provided during the war with Israel, to negate some of the drones, to understand that China will support Iran militarily. This decision seems to be coming from within Iran, versus an external restriction from China, which is not the case.

 

[Michael]

The real question it is, Why IRIAF bought the Su35 when something out of there (J10CE) have performed so brilliantly?.

The Su-35 and J-10CE are two completely different fighter jets. Heavy fighters and medium fighters cannot be compared; their roles and uses are entirely different.

From a practical technological standpoint, the Su-35's advantage lies in its inherent combat capabilities, while the J-10CE is a node in a system-of-systems air combat system. When both are part of a complete system, a single J-10CE fighter can easily defeat multiple Su-35 fighters and escape unscathed, leaving the Su-35s with no retaliatory capability (you can observe PLAAF air combat exercises for details). When neither engages in combat without system-of-systems support, the J-10CE has a slight advantage (more advanced radar and air-to-air missiles), but the outcome depends on the pilot's skill. In routine multi-mission operations, the Su-35 completely outclasses the J-10CE (the advantage of a heavy fighter).

The problem is that a complete air combat support system is extremely large and expensive. The PAF has a long history of cooperation with China, including with its long-range early warning radar, ground-based air defense systems, command systems, and data links. Therefore, after procuring the J-10CE, they quickly achieved operational capability. But Iran needs to rebuild everything. This will be a very large expense.

And the answer is there. For example, if China sells J10 (or other advanced jets) to IRIAF then Saudi arabia would never knock again the door of China as intermediary for diplomatic solutions, for example.

And let´s be honest. China have been sensitive in the deal of US tariffs rebate for some rare minerals, let alone to have complaints from at least 4 countries in the Middle East (Israel, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Jordania), not to mention even Egypt or Turkey.

If China wants to keep his status quo in the region, must avoid change equation, and that sell would do it.

And Russia does because Putin himself falled in the same category than Iran or North Korea. So that makes all in all "brothers of misery".

Regarding the understanding of international politics, given our different social environments, we cannot reach a consensus.

I have already stated my point of view. No one can pressure China for selling weapons to other countries, but they can pressure the purchasing countries.

If Saudi Arabia or Qatar are concerned about China selling fighter jets to Iran, they can purchase more advanced 5th-Gen fighter jets from China, or simultaneously purchase J-10CE+PL-15E fighters from China for research or countermeasures. China's weapons systems are open to Iran, but also to Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

 

[Kyussis]

IRIAF leadership is doing what it has determined best for their needs. Please stop with your redicioulus "Iran should by..." nonsense. If Iran wanted J-10Cs, Iran would have bought them! Clearly Iran is not interested. Just because J-10s preformed well against Indian AF does not mean Indian AF=U.SAF/Israel AF.

 

[Shafagh]

China will want cash for any hardware. They aren't interested in trading for oil.

With Russia, we at least paid downpayment and gave them lots of drone tech, helped set up their manufacturing. China doesn't need anything like that from Iran.

 

[Ali_Baba]

China will want cash for any hardware. They aren't interested in trading for oil.

With Russia, we at least paid downpayment and gave them lots of drone tech, helped set up their manufacturing. China doesn't need anything like that from Iran.

Why would China be happy to accept oil for payment of development/infrastructure projects, but then be unhappy to accept for military products?

 

[Hack-Hook]

China will want cash for any hardware. They aren't interested in trading for oil.

With Russia, we at least paid downpayment and gave them lots of drone tech, helped set up their manufacturing. China doesn't need anything like that from Iran.

we have more than 20milliard in china banks

 

[Shafagh]

Why would China be happy to accept oil for payment of development/infrastructure projects, but then be unhappy to accept for military products?

Because those contracts are long term. The oil helps top them up and set aside for their reserves. In exchange, they develop infrastructure and provide goods that are not under embargo.

They don't need more oil, and other countries are willing to pay cash.

They have said this before, a years ago.

If they had relied on oil supply from contracts for military products, they risk the U.S. or the west come after their banks and firms to punish them for arms deals with a country under embargo. Then they face both sanctions and risk to the oil supply.

That's why cash up front.

 

[Flotilla]

There is nothing to back this assertion about other countries of the middle east being part of why Iran has not purchased new aircraft from China. You have to look at the level of support China provided during the war with Israel, to negate some of the drones, to understand that China will support Iran militarily. This decision seems to be coming from within Iran, versus an external restriction from China, which is not the case.

Yes, China explicitly supported Iran in this war, and I am confident Irán is grateful. From type 815A spy ships to missile propellent or raw material for producing them.

But you miss something very important. China didn´t send a high tech weapon systems. All support was explicit and even sometimes published (China explicitly told that would support Irán right to defend themselves). But no missile systems, nor fighters nor warships.

And that is not deliberated. This very well calculated help is carefully limited to the point to not alter the balance of power in the Middle East. But if you sell something disruptive like J10CE+PL15 + AEW you will break completely the military balance in the Middle East. You would have a country capable of manufacturing at least 30 ballistic missiles monthly capable with tackle with all fighters deployed in Middle East. And China will never do that.

 

[Flotilla]

I have already stated my point of view. No one can pressure China for selling weapons to other countries, but they can pressure the purchasing countries.

So why China never gave something more common like J-7 or even Q-5?. We know that in the late 80s and 90s Irán bought J7, and those were delivered by China. But after it China never sold any other fighter or attack aircraft (Q5) to Irán.

The extremely low price of those fighters discard a hypothetical money problem. Also the operational history of the J7 in the IRIAF discard a technological bottleneck to absorb new fighters of the same model (we are not talking about something so technological like a j10 or J11B).

Also J7 and Q5 were out of production in 2015 and 2013 respectively so that means that China could eventually to keep the Final Assembly Line alive at least for an additional 1 or 2 squadrons of J7. But China didn´t.

China uses "whitewashed sources" to help militarily to countries like Irán or North Korea. That is the reason why Iran got missiles like 802 or ESM systems for their warships; Bayyenat radar for the F4 Dowran, etc.

So IMO if China doesn´t transfer new fighters or warships are not by economic problems, or technological dilemmas about being transfer to third parties. China have given ToT to Irán many time ago and will continue to do it.

 

[Michael]

So why China never gave something more common like J-7 or even Q-5?. We know that in the late 80s and 90s Irán bought J7, and those were delivered by China. But after it China never sold any other fighter or attack aircraft (Q5) to Irán.

The extremely low price of those fighters discard a hypothetical money problem. Also the operational history of the J7 in the IRIAF discard a technological bottleneck to absorb new fighters of the same model (we are not talking about something so technological like a j10 or J11B).

Also J7 and Q5 were out of production in 2015 and 2013 respectively so that means that China could eventually to keep the Final Assembly Line alive at least for an additional 1 or 2 squadrons of J7. But China didn´t.

China uses "whitewashed sources" to help militarily to countries like Irán or North Korea. That is the reason why Iran got missiles like 802 or ESM systems for their warships; Bayyenat radar for the F4 Dowran, etc.

So IMO if China doesn´t transfer new fighters or warships are not by economic problems, or technological dilemmas about being transfer to third parties. China have given ToT to Irán many time ago and will continue to do it.

You need to seriously study "what international relations are."

The diplomatic relations between China and Iran have been dynamic and evolving over the years. We are not hostile, but we are not particularly close either. In the minds of both China and Iran's respective populations, the relationship is simply a typical international one.

Iran has been subject to UN sanctions for a long time. China is a member of the P5. Only after these sanctions are lifted can we discuss the possibility of arms trade between China and Iran.