Flotilla
Trusted Member
Agreed. Some Bastion-P systems would keep away some 300 km away any warship of any nation. Only chinese YJ-12 are similar in concept and are really dreadful for shipping.
Iranian Navy | News and Discussions
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Flames In The Desert
Registered Member
tsunset
The Legend
What is the Iranian counterpart to Bastion? Only truck launched CMs?
Iran would need to purchase Bastion batteries or make its own Bastion to be fitted with supersonic and HCMs
But the pro of the truck is the civilian disguise and very mobile
tsunset
The Legend
Nice video but weird "scenario" at the end, the myth of Iran still using P-15/SY is still a thing apparently
A batch of drones, followed by P-15/21s + SA-2 SAM missiles on the carrier group?
Iran didn't even show signs of having P-15 since the end of the war with Iraq, and SA-2 used as an anti ship missile? According to Wikipedia sources Iran doesn't even have SA-2 Guideline and possess 9 of the Chinese copy of it, which we never saw in use as air defense
Logic would say batch of suicide drone swarm, followed by blue CMs (Ghadir, C-803 upgraded) followed by anti ship ballistic missiles and UCAVs
Also Arash can carry air to air missiles instead of a guided bomb
HAIDER
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
This is in context of old Russian stockpile in Yemen. Modified and used in war.
Flames In The Desert
Registered Member
Yes,this is one of the rather obvious gaps in irans missile arsenal,the lack of a supersonic cruise missile,either a multi-purpose weapon [both land attack and antiship] or a family of more specialized weapons for various types of launch platforms [road mobile,air launch,naval],basically the supersonic equivalents of irans subsonic cruise missile types.
Immortals
Elite Member
I didn’t watch video, but SM-2 not SA-2.
Iranian Navy used SM-2 for longest time as they are left overs from being an American backed banana country.
Standard Missile body is foundation of most of our air defense missiles including Sayyad and Talash.
That is why people say we first copied BUK aren’t exactly correct. Reality is we used BUK chasis + SM-2 body + Iranian ingenuity to create our first domestic air defense missile family (Talash and Sayyad) known as Tabas.
Now to be clear I’m not saying Sayyad-2/3 are same as SM-2, I am saying we used the body as the baseline design. Internals are Iranian designed, but likely influenced by internals of Russian and American engineering. I doubt Iran reinvented the wheel.
Immortals
Elite Member
The issue is and you can see Iran has one Achilles heel: scramjet, turbojet, turbofan engines. Notice nearly all of Iran’s weapon platforms rely either on prop, turboprop, or mini jet (tolou family) Why is that? Because Iran struggles in engine department. There is no Solemani, Fakhrizadeh, or Tehrani Moghdam for engines in Iranian military today. There are plenty of retired Lockheed/Northrup Grumman Iranians living in Iran, but government doesn’t utilize them.
New Tanks…engine issue
New Helicopter….engine issue
New Fighter jet….engine issue
New Supersonic drone…engine issue
New Supersonic cruise missile….engine issue
See the Pattern?
Kh-55 is prime example of my point above. iran could not even replicate the Soviet engine performance of KH-55. That is why Soumar did not get produced in mass and Abu Mahdi did.
I ask you this: Soumar was developed in 2015, yet how many Soumar have you seen? Yet you hear about Abu Mahdi being deployed on naval warships even today.
Iran couldn’t match engine performance of KH-55. The engine iran did design was inferior and more costly so it moved back to what it knew with Abu Mahdi missile.
This isn’t my analysis, Patrames agrees.
@Hack-Hook will also likely agree. Iran is struggling in engine category. It’s not just about making an engine, it’s making an engine that performs reliably (low fail rate, high fuel efficiency to thrust) and is COST EFFECTIVE. That last point is key. If engineers come up with a design but it cost $5M a missile (example) that is dead on arrival. No one in Iran will buy that no matter how much you scream it will perform better. China could afford many times that amount and so can Russia, but not Iranian military. They will kick the project and say it’s not worth the cost and rather produce 10 C-802’s for same cost based on swarm theory.
So Iranian engineers are tasked with a daunting task which is to make engines wether drone based, cruise missile based, or aircraft based at a cost effective point while largely matching Russian or Chinese performance.
That is very hard to do without ToT or breakthroughs. And engineering breakthroughs take time unless like the Chinese you have a massive IP/trade secret espionage military division that steals R&D from around the world relentlessly.
Just this month, Chinese nationals were caught selling TSLA’s trade secrets in battery tech to foreign suitors. If they are already selling to foreign buyers it means china government is way ahead already.
Well there is only so much money to go around. When you don’t trade much with the west or the east, you build a weak economy that cannot afford a massive defense budget.
Iran relies on its BM force + foreign legions to deter American and Israel aggression of its territorial integrity. Much like Russia relies on its vast nuclear arsenal to deter the massive parity that NATO has on Russian forces on paper in terms of fancy weapons vs fancy weapons. Again not my analysis, Putin himself said it on live TV.
If you want an Iran that spends 75-100B/yr on its military. Then using a calculation for an aggressive military build up 3-4% of GDP….would mean a GDP of at least 2.5T
Now I don’t believe Iran’s GDP is 1-1.5T nor do I believe it’s 300-400B. If I had to peg the Iranian economy I would say 700B ball park. Just my opinion. But if I’m right, that means Iranian economy would need to grow up to 4x its current size to afford a 75B a year military budget assuming a 3% of GDP spend rate. That would match the Russian military. Now do the numbers for 100B or 150B a year military…..simply daunting without being an economic powerhouse or relying on a security alliance that shares defense cost (ie NATO).
Most countries spend ~2% of their GDP on defense….unless in war time or undergoing a military build up like China is right now as it aims to match US military ‘mono e mono’.
Iran’s defense industry is massive and I mean massive. It will only continue to grow as foreign buyers fill in the funding voids that domestic military cannot do.
There are soooooo many projects that do not see the light of day. For every 1 project waiting for someone in Iranian military to give them a contract there are 100 that don’t get disclosed. Look at the MRAP category, we had 5+ designs released by different companies and I think only 2 maybe 3 got some small contracts.
The issue is Iranian military only wants tried and true designs. Thus if your quasi private and government backed defense company in Iran you are gonna spend time on concepts that will likely get approval. That means moving away from high ticket items or completely untested ideas.
It’s not that Iran cannot produce fancier unique weapons systems, it’s just that there is a risk spending all that time on R&D prototype and no one gives you a contract.
Remember Zubin?
This was an very modern design based on a South African system but with Iranian ingenuity. Yet what happened to it? It lost to Majid, Azarkash, and Dey Missile systems. Why? Because that spinny thing on top is a high end radar that cost a significant amount of money per hour to operate. But it provides the system 360 defense coverage and zero blind spots.
This type of problem happens way more than you think and doesn’t get discussed on here at all.
Another example is how many years has it been that Iranian company unveiled Mobin stealth cruise missile?
It has an RCS of just .1m2 and while it’s subsonic it’s a lot harder to detect than Iran’s KH-55 or C-802 family. Yet not a single word on that project.
A big red flag is Whenever Iran advertises a new weapon system at international weapons expo and yet NONE exist in Iranian inventory —> that’s a tell tale sign of funding problem/rejected design.
Swarm attacks will work for maybe next 10-15 years. But as laser based defense systems get more and more common then you cannot rely on swarm attacks that rely on war of $$$$ attrition or ammo attrition. The cost of a laser air defense “per shot” is cents on the dollar and unlimited. That is why Ukraine is losing the war right now, it’s consuming too much expensive ammo on defense.
Thus 2040 and beyond will be the war of hypersonic and VLO objects to bypass laser based defense systems. Once more and more fusion reactors come online in 2040s and 2050’s then you will truly limitless energy potential and more Star Wars based weapon systems which will make swarm attacks not very viable.
This is natural evolution of war as old archaic designs get replaced by newer designs that can defeat the latest defense systems. It’s a cat and mouse game that has gone on for thousands of years. We went from spears to catapults to cannons to autocannons to liquid missiles to solid missiles and now to lasers (energy based weaponry).
But you will always need soldiers (human or humanoid) as stand off weapons cannot defeat an enemy, only deter or degrade them.
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tsunset
The Legend
About the very hyped up US LRASM
How should Iran respond to this serious threat? I know that people saying the big warships with containers BMs are sitting ducks, but some of them has 6x 20mm cannons on them as ciws
Bullets or missiles would be the most appropriate to deal with them, or missile defense? (and radars)
How should Iran respond to this serious threat? I know that people saying the big warships with containers BMs are sitting ducks, but some of them has 6x 20mm cannons on them as ciws
Bullets or missiles would be the most appropriate to deal with them, or missile defense? (and radars)
Immortals
Elite Member
It is not hyped. The threat is very real. Just look at Stormshadows and their effect on Russia-Ukraine war. It requires Russia to devote considerable amount of resources to protect key areas. And Ukraine doesn’t even have that many of them. Imagine a US that fields hundreds or thousands.
This is why Germany refuses to sell their version of Stormshadow/LRASM to Ukraine because they fear Ukraine will attack Crimea bridge. And they will. Russia has threatened severe repercussions if Germany goes thru. Remains to be seen if it’s a bluff.
The stealth CM threat is very real, imagine a what a S-136 with a 250-300kg warhead that makes little sound and hugs the terrain much closer than other CMs. It is virtually hard to detect outside close-medium range. Basically a poor man’s F-117 for evasion.
And their hypersonic brothers are in development. They will be costly, but reserved for HVT targets behind enemy lines. And surely Iran’s few large navy ships and major land based military targets will be in their sights in case of war.
The only counter right now is jamming GPS signal and hoping it throws missile off track. That is what Russia uses against HIMARS GPS guided missiles and it largely works but there are only so many GPS jammers to go around vs how many targets to protect. If CM uses TERCOM guidance or millimeter radar in terminal stage than it can evade jamming and still get <20m accuracy on average.
Again a laser based CWIS is the most cost effective approach, but you need powerful radars constantly on and scanning and communicating with each other and sharing data to pull off locating LO and VLO objects. Sure you could do none of the above and be like Serbia and get a little lucky with a talented air defense team when they downed F-117.
Right now Iran’s best bet is laser based air defense systems, plus upgrading CMs, and continue building deterrence. There is no way for Iran for to counter every US/NATO weapon with 1/50th the annual military budget even considering cost difference parity.
Immortals
Elite Member
Recent article illustrating my point on energy based defense systems for the future
amp.scmp.com
In a battle between lasers and hypersonic weapons, scientists find less is more
Chinese research into the effectiveness of using lasers to combat hypersonic missiles turns up some surprise findings.
amp.scmp.com
tsunset
The Legend
They are a serious threat as i read everywhere online, the weapon is also smart and can be launched from C-130/C-17 using Rapid Dragon
This weapon would be used in numbers to just destroy the navy in some days
CSIS (i know it is pro west and funded by arms manufacturer) says if Taiwan has them, a big part of the PLN would be sank in 10-15 days only, though I'm not sure considering CSIS made contradictory statements about Iran and China
L
LegionnairE
Guest
I have to say, this is a very interesting idea
but I'm curious to see how they build the elevators and more importantly how they will manage landings?
isn't it going to be difficult to land a UAV on this ship without hitting that huge stuperstructure?
and 170 meters is very short, what type of aircraft is this ship going to operate ?
Zarathustra
Registered Member
Best defence would be to announce the nuclear option
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