Israel Genocide in Gaza - 2023 to present - Part ll

[Watandar]

The Palestinians need a disciplined and NON violent form of resistance. That's the only way to go against an enemy that is many times more powerful than you.

Palestinians have tried everything non violence, armed resistence, even surrender. Nothing has worked so far as their enemy are religious fanatics who want the land and want the Palestinians gone, else their promise messiah will not come.

 

[Falcon29]

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[_Arabia_]

@_Arabia_

I talked about that extensively on pages 80-82..

Agree with your take and also I wouldn't wait on Palestinain factions to make up their mind. I'd pressure them now while we can. Sometimes pressure/guidance is necessary and helps them.

It's also beneficial to all parties involved. Egypt, Lebanon, Iran , Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Syria, etc... it's all beneficial to their security and we don't want these nations subjugated to attack/sanctions because of status quo in conflict. Even for Israeli's if they truly seek to coexist and be accepted in region, they can show that now by accepting two state solution ....

We don't have a problem living alongside Jews we have lived with them for decades, they even used to travel freely into Gaza prior to Oslo Accords period. Now we want to see them extend their hand for peace and show us they're serious and prepared

I am/was on my phone and I honestly have not read the last many pages. This thread is too extensive, and I am mostly interested in what you two guys are writing and Palestinian options in general as that is all that matters.

I honestly, which you know already given past exchanges for the past many years, had once hope of Arab-Jewish coexistence (like throughout much of recorded history) and cooperation, also because the majority of Israeli Jews are Arab Jews (who look mostly like us, whose parents, grandparents or great-grandparents lived in the Arab world for millennia and originate there) but given the true nature of how the Israeli society has behaved in the past 2 years, how they have actively supported the genocide, how they keep voting for radical Zionists, how they are doing nothing concrete to improve regional relations or work towards a lasting solution or peace, I have developed a problem with Jews as a people. I no longer consider them as potential future partners.

I also did not see many rabbis or Jewish organizations condemn what occurred. Which is strange because Muslims organizations, 1000's of Imams and clerics, academics etc. in the Arab world, West, Muslim world has had to and have done the same whenever individual Muslims have done wrong things or due to terrorist attacks or fringe militant groups. Yet the media/world demanded more. Yet I have not even seen anything remotely similar from Jews which also speaks very badly about them as a collective group of people. Maybe I have missed it but I have not noticed this.

If you ask me it would require a complete change of Israeli society similar to what happened in Germany after WW2 (denazification). Dezionification is needed which will not occur overnight even if implemented. Also the perpetrators of this genocide need to be bought to justice. Arab and Muslim regimes (not going to happen unfortunately) need to stop all ties with the current version of Israel.

I want to see changes from the Israeli side for me to believe that they (majority) want to live in peace with us in the region.

Anyway it would be absolutely wonderful if there could be lasting peace and a solution that Palestinians would be satisfied with. Not out of love for Israel/Jews but simply due to the fact that too much potential, lives, money, focus, time has been spent on this conflict and Palestinians most importantly deserve better and to concentrate on their progress like any other people in this world.

But personally I cannot trust (ever) this current Israeli generation after what has transpired unless the Israeli society themselves change drastically and justice is served.

We should be able to forgive as people and individuals in theory, I agree with this, and people should not pay for the sins of their parents, grandparents or relatives, if they have not been involved, but the Zionists have caused so much permanent harm, killed so many people, that it will be very hard to forgive for the average Gazan let alone want a genuine relationship. I don't think this is realistic in the short-term at all.

Also the current Israeli government should have zero legitimacy after what has occurred to begin with.

it is not for me to decide what the Palestinian factions should do long-term or short-term but I can only say that personally I would never give up arms or the legitimate struggle for a Palestinian statehood as long as the systematic injustices are occurring and as long as Palestinians are prevented from getting a state or as long as Israel does not want a 1 state solution with equal rights for everyone and a right of return for families forcefully expelled during the Nakba.

 

[Falcon29]

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[_Arabia_]

The Palestinians need a disciplined and NON violent form of resistance. That's the only way to go against an enemy that is many times more powerful than you.

I agree with this option in theory and I have been of this opinion for the past 10 years. In terms of advocating your rights. However when/if you are attacked or your land is getting illegally annexed and your people harassed, you have an Islamic duty to resist and even if you remove the religious angle, it is the right of every people and country to resist their aggressors. It is quite logical if you ask me.

Now, I also wrote earlier, that it is not up to me to decide whether 7th of October was "worth it" or the right decision, only local Gazans can answer this, but if this Israeli genocide, in hindsight, turns out, to be what started the irreversible movement towards a Palestinian statehood/permanent solution to the conflict, then generations of Palestinians and Arabs from now and many years/decades/centuries from now, will say yes, it was worth it.

Just like any national struggle for freedom/war of liberation, martyrs are a given and I don't know any state that was created or appeared on the map, where it occurred without deaths or sacrifices.

This is like asking the average Russian if it was worth it to resist the Nazis and if 30 + million casualties was worth it. Nobody would say no.

It is absolutely tragic and traumatic for the many families in Gaza that have lost loved ones, many people will never recover fully, although time is always a great healer eventually, but this is unfortunately the story of much of humanity. Besides for religious people, those people are in paradise and are martyrs for the cause and their deaths are "greater" than simply dying of old age. It should never have occurred but if you have to die, dying a martyr is always preferable than dying like a coward. As Muslims we believe that those innocent people that have died in this conflict as well as Hamas (and other fighters) are all martyrs and currently, if Allah (swt) permits it and wills it, in paradise with their dead loved ones and past dead relatives and others.

 

[Falcon29]

This is called being dishonest. What Hamas signed in Egypt did not stipulate any of that.

Maybe it's the hopes of far right Jewish maniacs, but it's not what their government signed and approved.

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[tower9]

Palestinians have tried everything non violence, armed resistence, even surrender. Nothing has worked so far as their enemy are religious fanatics who want the land and want the Palestinians gone, else their promise messiah will not come.

There has never been a unified, wide ranging and disciplined non-violent movement. There have been a few isolated advocates of this movement, but there has been a lot more armed resistance and you can see what that's gotten the Palestinians.

To deal with an enemy like this, you need a unified, large, collective non-violent movement.

 

[Watandar]

There has never been a unified, wide ranging and disciplined non-violent movement. There have been a few isolated advocates of this movement, but there has been a lot more armed resistance and you can see what that's gotten the Palestinians.

To deal with an enemy like this, you need a unified, large, collective non-violent movement.

Intifada 1 in the 1980s was what you are describing, it happened at a time when the Bush 1 admin was pressuring Israel on two state solution. The result was Oslo accords which the Israelis subsequently violated and ignored once Bush 1 left office.

In Gaza , there have been many peaceful protests but when the protestors would come close to the barrier, the Israelis would shoot them in the knees.

 

[Persian Gulf]

- Contrary to the published withdrawal maps: The Southern Command deployed its forces far from the "Yellow Line" - the withdrawal line designated for the Israeli army according to the agreement.

- Although the "Yellow Line" is several kilometers away from the Israel-Gaza border, most of the army's current positions are only one to one and a half kilometers from the border.

- Meaning: There are many areas that are supposed to be under Israeli army control, but they are empty of forces, and the army has placed its forward positions far behind the withdrawal line.

 

[_Arabia_]

I think that the entire world needs to boycott Israel completely if it turns out that this peace deal is a hoax only intended to get their hostages out later to just resume their genocide and do nothing towards seeking a permanent solution to end the conflict and work towards either a realistic two-state solution or a one-state solution with equal rights for everyone.

I would not be the least surprised if this was a setup given that the Trump government is heavily infiltrated/dominated by radical Zionists.

Muslim leadership could have sold out the Palestinians permanently as well because all of them are afraid of the might of the US. We don't know what has been discussed behind closed doors. Or maybe, just maybe, this deal came into place due to finally Muslim leaders saying "enough is enough" and truly pressuring the US/Trump. Or the tide simply changing among the average American/conservatives/Western governments. Probably a combination of everything.

Now whatever occurred or occurs, Trump would be humiliated in front of the entire world if Netanyahu breaks this deal and resumes his genocide. Can Trump tolerate being embarrassed in front of the world and getting played by Netanyahu?

It is absolutely insane how much power the American-Jewish community has. I believe that it is the world's most destructive (single) community. They are also funding all the illegal settlements more than any other community. They were behind the illegal invasion of Iraq as well.

How could Americans (almost 350 million people) just accept this Jewish domination and subjugation without any struggle or protests and why are the people accepting it for so long?

Media is largely run by them, Wall Street and financial institutions, Hollywood, complete overrepresentation in academia, politics etc. It is not normal for 7 million people (out of 350 + million people) to have this much power anywhere in the world.

We are talking about 2% of the population.

It is absolutely insane to look at this from the outside as a non-American. It makes zero sense.

It is not in the interests of the US/American people to create enemies out of Arabs or Muslims. The last 60-70 years of US foreign policy has been controlled/orchestrated by American Jews mainly one way or another. Either that or the braindead American evangelical "Christians" who are worshipping Israel and some false Bible or whatever they are doing.

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Absolutely insane how many stupid and easily fooled people are out there. It would take literally 30 minutes for any sane and remotely intelligent person o understand what is up and what is down in this conflict, let alone a supposed God-fearing Christian. It should be impossible for any Christian, given scripture, to support Israel and what they are doing, not to mention that Jews are not Christians but there is an actual Palestinian Christian community. Also I believe that Jews consider Prophet Isa (AS) to be a false prophet, so what this entire Judea-Christian nonsense is, I have no idea about. Christians have never been friends with Jews until recently due to the crazy Evangelicals in the US. Catholics and Orthodox Arabs (obviously) and Europeans (and Africans and others) are often very critical of Israel. Not blind Israel-worshippers. The past Pope for example was very critical of Israel and used to keep in touch with Christian Gazans daily.

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[Falcon29]

I think that the entire world needs to boycott Israel completely if it turns out that this peace deal is a hoax only intended to get their hostages out later to just resume their genocide and do nothing towards seeking a permanent solution to end the conflict and work towards either a realistic two-state solution or a one-state solution with equal rights for everyone.

I would not be the least surprised if this was a setup given that the Trump government is heavily infiltrated/dominated by radical Zionists.

Muslim leadership could have sold out the Palestinians permanently as well because all of them are afraid of the might of the US. We don't know what has been discussed behind closed doors. Or maybe, just maybe, this deal came into place due to finally Muslim leaders saying "enough is enough" and truly pressuring the US/Trump. Or the tide simply changing among the average American/conservatives/Western governments. Probably a combination of everything.

Now whatever occurred or occurs, Trump would be humiliated in front of the entire world if Netanyahu breaks this deal and resumes his genocide. Can Trump tolerate being embarrassed in front of the world and getting played by Netanyahu?

It is absolutely insane how much power the American-Jewish community has. I believe that it is the world's most destructive (single) community. They are also funding all the illegal settlements more than any other community. They were behind the illegal invasion of Iraq as well.

How could Americans (almost 350 million people) just accept this Jewish domination and subjugation without any struggle or protests and why are the people accepting it for so long?

Banks are run by the, Wall Street, Hollywood, complete overrepresentation in Academia, politics etc. It is not normal for 7 million people (out of 350 + million people) to have this much power anywhere in the world.

We are talking about 2% of the population.

It is absolutely insane to look at this from the outside as a non-American. It makes zero sense.

It is not in the interests of the US/American people to create enemies out of Arabs or Muslims. The last 60-70 years of US foreign policy has been controlled/orchestrated by American Jews mainly one way or another. Either that or the braindead American evangelical "Christians" who are worshipping Israel and some false Bible or whatever they are doing.

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Absolutely insane how many stupid and easily fooled people are out there. It would take literally 30 minutes for any sane and remotely intelligent person o understand what is up and what is down in this conflict, let alone a supposed God-fearing Christian. It should be impossible for any Christian, given scripture, to support Israel and what they are doing, not to mention that Jews are not Christians but there is an actual Palestinian Christian community. Also I believe that Jews consider Prophet Isa (AS) to be a false prophet, so what this entire Judea-Christian nonsense is, I have no idea about. Christians have never been friends with Jews until recently due to the crazy Evangelicals in the US. Catholics and Orthodox Arabs (obviously) and Europeans (and Africans and others) are often very critical of Israel. Not blind Israel-worshippers. The past Pope for example was very critical of Israel and used to keep in touch with Christian Gazans daily.

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Well written post.

I believe this ceasefire is legit and Arabs/Muslims helped secure it. But I'm sharing these posts from Israeli OSINT accounts, journalists, etc.... just incase it turns out to be a scam

 

[Falcon29]

@_Arabia_

This would have never been the case two years ago. Americans are now questioning our alliance with Israel and its influence on our foreign/domestic politics more boldly than ever before.

Part of that is due to Elon Musk takeover of X. The other part is the genocide meant Israel could finally be questioned and people are less afraid now to do so.

There is something changing in America, it's not a temporary effect of Gaza genocide. It also has to do with perceived Jewish influence over free speech, immigration laws/immigration, and more.

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[Falcon29]

Their definition of genocide 'stopped' :

1.) Israel agreeing to pause bombardment for 72 hours, hours after this guy even posted. While he posted this, Israel was bombing Gaza

2.) Israeli army controls 60% of Gaza. Is still besieging tent cities. And is in an offensive posture to resume ground offensive

3.) Israeli government refuses to call this a ceasefire. Says it's a hostage release/exchange. Calls it 'Phase 1' and doesn't pledge to end genocide

4.) Gaza population cannot be counted. We don't know what the population actually is. We don't know the true extent of death toll because Israel won't allow international media, officials, and organizations into Gaza still.

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[_Arabia_]

@Falcon29

Spot on. Which is what I eluded to in my post to brother @Unknowntruth even though I partially share and understand his pessimism. How can you not as an Palestinian given what the Palestinian people have been through for the past century?

This possible change cannot be underestimated. It could potentially completely change American foreign policy as we know it. It never made sense why the US was completely beholden and tolerated tiny Israel to do whatever it wants to in the region often to the detriment of US foreign interests.

Sure, Israel has done well in terms of innovation, science etc. (partially due to Western help since 1948 and before that a few 1000 very well-educated Jewish Europeans migrating to Israel before and after 1948) and the economy is fairly strong compared to its size. However looking at it in the wider picture, just the Arab world alone, Israel is a dwarf in every sphere. UAE alone has a larger economy and 1000 times the sovereign wealth fund, investments etc. In which world does it make any sense to keep alienating the Arab world (a region the size of Russia spanning 2 continents with a population exceeding 500 million, by 2050 approaching 800 million) with an economy several trillion USD big (the GCC alone has an economy of 3 trillion USD), untold resources (some of the richest places on the planet in terms of resources are in the Arab world, GCC mainly, KSA alone has more natural resources wealth than any other country not named Russia - which is 7 times bigger than KSA and the by far largest nation on earth), not to mention some of the most key trade routes on the planet.

It makes ZERO sense to prefer tiny Israel if you look at everything in a neutral way. I know that Israel was created and acts like a Western outpost in the heart of the Arab/Muslim world but nevertheless.

Also don't forget that the reason why Arabs and Muslim numbers in Europe keep increasing is due to largely US/Jewish funded wars in the Middle East/Arab world. Educated conservative Westerners understand this and are slowly waking up.

Notice how Israel is never impacted by regional events/wars/migrations etc. They never take any refugees (LOL) for instance. Syrians should have been flooding Israel, not Turkey, Jordan or Lebanon in a perfect world. Same with Iraqis after the illegal war in 2003. It is time for Westerners to wake up and smell the coffee and realize who is using them for their own benefits.

 

[Falcon29]

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