JF-17 PFX program

[Corax]

PFX is plain and simple blk 4. PAC will continue with jft since it can't afford to shut down the line. Too much at stake. PFX was proposed by CAC back in 2017 but never materialized.

This will serve as the low end with j10c being mid while j31 being high end. KAAN is a distant dream for now as I don't see it in TUAF let alone for export before 2035.

Exactly my thoughts. There's also the Viper fleet to consider.

 

[Zarvan]

PFX is plain and simple blk 4. PAC will continue with jft since it can't afford to shut down the line. Too much at stake. PFX was proposed by CAC back in 2017 but never materialized.

This will serve as the low end with j10c being mid while j31 being high end. KAAN is a distant dream for now as I don't see it in TUAF let alone for export before 2035.

If we are going for BLOCK 4 than that would be basically like Grippen E. 10 hardpoints, more powerful AESA radar, Avionics, internally integrated IRST, EW suit and few other things.

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[Corax]

For now, it would be JF-17, J-31, J-10 C in primary roles. After 6 years KAAN will start to come. Still the question remains what on earth is JF 17 PFX. If it turns out it's not KAAN but a Grippen E type version of JF-17 than that would also mean, we would at least induct at least 150 of those jets. Because less than that doesn't give us economies of scale.

The PAF has shown you what the 'JFX' in the video?! It's essentially a 'Block IV' JF-17. KAAN is KAAN, and not anywhere likely until for a very long time, maybe to eventually replace the Vipers, similar to what the TuAF will do.

 

[Be dazzled]

Exactly my thoughts. There's also the Viper fleet to consider.

Don't expect vipers to be around for 56 years like Mirages did. We can't repair, overhaul, make parts/avionics/weapons/radar, and upgrade them like Mirs. They'll likely start resting by 2035-40 at best.

 

[mulj]

I agree with @JamD

There's no "JF-17 PFX." It's the PAF's last-ditch attempt to give the JF-17 production line more life, and it likely won't succeed. Why? Well, it's not because of the JF-17, but because AHQ is now looking towards J-10CE, J-31, and KAAN; where's JF-17 going to fit?

Personally, I believed - and still do - that the JF-17 should continue. The PAF should look at replacing the Block-Is with a Block-III/B-based system equipped with improved subsystems and next-gen interoperability (E.g., MUM-T).

No matter what, we should maintain a large fleet of lightweight fighters to defend our airspace, even if we induct many larger designs, like the J-31 and KAAN. Dedicate the latter for offensive operations, retain and upgrade the JF-17s for defensive measures.

Stop thinking about export. The truth is that the JF-17 is a niche concept. Not many air forces needed that type of fighter and the ones who did all designed and built their own (i.e., Sweden, South Korea, and India). Thus, you're left with a tiny market and quite a few options. The concept is starting to catch on now, but most buyers are leaning toward the Korean F/A-50, which provides a great balance of cost, capability, and manageable Western integration.

This isn't to indict the JF-17. It gave the PAF the fighter it needed at a critical time, and even with zero exports, I'd call it a success. Unfortunately, the PAF isn't equipped to manage the program for its next chapter.

The PAF leadership is trying to be a warfighting force, business, gentleman's club, tech startup, and foreign affairs ministry all in one. However, the institution isn't equipped to manage any of that non-warfighting work efficiently, nor should it be...

IMO, in the late 2000s, entities such as PAC (alongside HIT, POF, KSEW, etc) should have been reorganized into a separate force focused on defence R&D and production.

Okay, you don't want to trust the politicians and civilians - fine! - then at least set up another military service arm focused on R&D and production.

Put a 3-star/4-star general at the top alongside 1-star/2-stars to form a board of directors, and then delegate, delegate, and delegate the management of the R&D arm to scientists, engineers, business experts, etc. Basically, adopt a similar model to what the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation does with Turkiye's state-owned defence industry players, like TAI.

These experts would've seen the JF-17's market problems many years in advance and, in turn, could've pivoted to a succession program sooner. For example, they might have flagged the J-31 and TFX earlier on in their development cycles and, in turn, pushed for advance funding towards both to secure valuable co-production work, tech transfer, etc, later. They may spot and leverage opportunities (e.g., South Africa's Marlin AAM/SAM program, Ukraine's AI-9500F turbofan, etc.,) to build our domestic capability base.

Azerbeijan and Iraq are ideal states for longevity of the jf-17 program, they do not want to many western equipment.
In essence any country who wants to emulate in certain extent the Independent position with not to many strings attached are ideal potential customers.
If you can achieve level of performance and economy of Gripen NG, you have ace ticket in sleeve. What stops selling gripen in doves is harsh export policy by swedish state.

 

[kalakhan]

It is single tail stealth feature

 

[PakAl]

Paf has over 150 Jf17s, we can induct another 50 blocks 3s if needed to bring the number to 200, I can't see a reason why they would invest more in to Jf17 upgrade when we have inducted J10cs, a bigger powerful platform.
Paf best path is to buy more J10Cs to increase the number to 90, then by 2030 buy J35s to replace older JF17s and after 2035s buy 72 TFX to replace F16s.

 

[Corax]

Don't expect vipers to be around for 56 years like Mirages did. We can't repair, overhaul, make parts/avionics/weapons/radar, and upgrade them like Mirs. They'll likely start resting by 2035-40 at best.

Exactly, just about the right time to replace them with a more mature KAAN variant, tailored for the PAF. The TuAF intend to replace their Vipers with the KAAN. But my point was that it's unlikely the PAF will induct so many platforms any time soon given that it has a sizeable legacy fleet still.

 

[mulj]

azeri and iraqi deal shows nothing because it doesnt exist lol

Did i say otherwise?

 

[PakAl]

Exactly, just about the right time to replace them with a more mature KAAN variant, tailored for the PAF. The TuAF intend to replace their Vipers with the KAAN. But my point was that it's unlikely the PAF will induct so many platforms any time soon given that it has a sizeable legacy fleet still.

At the moment paf has: Mirage3/5, F7PGs, F16s, Jf17s, J10Cs.
Future 2030/2035: Jf17s, F16s, J10Cs, J35s.
Future 2035/2040s: Jf17 Block 3s, J10cs, J35s, Kaan, Kilzimia, Anka.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

 

[Admiral General Aladin]

Yes, because it's KAAN project which would get modified according to our requirements. I seriously doubt it's some totally different project. It's KAAN which would be modified according to our needs.

I don’t think it’s kaan project modified.why you need modification when you can get a full kaan stealth project.jf-17 pfs maybe a upgraded version of jf-17 like gripen ng or super hornet.

 

[Admiral General Aladin]

KAAN will be produced in Pakistan. Yes we joined KAAN project. 200 Pakistani engineers and technicians are not working on KAAN just to buy it off the shelf

But that doesn’t mean Pakistan will buy kaan.if you want to buy,you have to sign a deal.those 200 engineers working in the project are nothing to be proud off.still Pakistan officially didn’t sign a deal with turkey to manufacture kaan.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

At the moment paf has: Mirage3/5, F7PGs, F16s, Jf17s, J10Cs.
Future 2030/2035: Jf17s, F16s, J10Cs, J35s.
Future 2035/2040s: Jf17 Block 3s, J10cs, J35s, Kaan, Kilzimia, Anka.

IMO stealthy KIZILELMA and ANKA-3*, getting into serial production with the Ukrainian engines** this year, may join the PAF much earlier. The PAF might not miss the opportunity to have this asymmetric dominance over the IAF in particular and India in general. They need it for the Hindutva regime has declared a de facto war on Pak by stopping the river flow...

*They, along with the unmanned surface and submersible naval platforms, are earmarked to be the "opening salvos" to wage a "robotic" war on the Greek (de facto NATO) forcers in an asymmetric non-contact manner at the Aegean and East Med theaters.

**How the Ukrainian companies are producing engines in bulk, and that too the customized ones as per the Turkish specs, is quite a mystery given Russia has destroyed their production facilities. No wonder Ukraine, as per her ambassador to Turkey, wants to be first export customer of KAAN.

 

[Sanwal]

I agree with @JamD

There's no "JF-17 PFX." It's the PAF's last-ditch attempt to give the JF-17 production line more life, and it likely won't succeed. Why? Well, it's not because of the JF-17, but because AHQ is now looking towards J-10CE, J-31, and KAAN; where's JF-17 going to fit?

Personally, I believed - and still do - that the JF-17 should continue. The PAF should look at replacing the Block-Is with a Block-III/B-based system equipped with improved subsystems and next-gen interoperability (E.g., MUM-T).

No matter what, we should maintain a large fleet of lightweight fighters to defend our airspace, even if we induct many larger designs, like the J-31 and KAAN. Dedicate the latter for offensive operations, retain and upgrade the JF-17s for defensive measures.

Stop thinking about export. The truth is that the JF-17 is a niche concept. Not many air forces needed that type of fighter and the ones who did all designed and built their own (i.e., Sweden, South Korea, and India). Thus, you're left with a tiny market and quite a few options. The concept is starting to catch on now, but most buyers are leaning toward the Korean F/A-50, which provides a great balance of cost, capability, and manageable Western integration.

This isn't to indict the JF-17. It gave the PAF the fighter it needed at a critical time, and even with zero exports, I'd call it a success. Unfortunately, the PAF isn't equipped to manage the program for its next chapter.

The PAF leadership is trying to be a warfighting force, business, gentleman's club, tech startup, and foreign affairs ministry all in one. However, the institution isn't equipped to manage any of that non-warfighting work efficiently, nor should it be...

IMO, in the late 2000s, entities such as PAC (alongside HIT, POF, KSEW, etc) should have been reorganized into a separate force focused on defence R&D and production.

Okay, you don't want to trust the politicians and civilians - fine! - then at least set up another military service arm focused on R&D and production.

Put a 3-star/4-star general at the top alongside 1-star/2-stars to form a board of directors, and then delegate, delegate, and delegate the management of the R&D arm to scientists, engineers, business experts, etc. Basically, adopt a similar model to what the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation does with Turkiye's state-owned defence industry players, like TAI.

These experts would've seen the JF-17's market problems many years in advance and, in turn, could've pivoted to a succession program sooner. For example, they might have flagged the J-31 and TFX earlier on in their development cycles and, in turn, pushed for advance funding towards both to secure valuable co-production work, tech transfer, etc, later. They may spot and leverage opportunities (e.g., South Africa's Marlin AAM/SAM program, Ukraine's AI-9500F turbofan, etc.,) to build our domestic capability base.

The more logical step would be to transfer the skills, knowledge and experience learned from the JF-17 program to PPE/PPPs or Private entities to build an eco-system to support future programs.