JF-17 PFX program

[FuturePAF]

For now, it would be JF-17, J-31, J-10 C in primary roles. After 6 years KAAN will start to come. Still the question remains what on earth is JF 17 PFX. If it turns out it's not KAAN but a Grippen E type version of JF-17 than that would also mean, we would at least induct at least 150 of those jets. Because less than that doesn't give us economies of scale.

Perhaps they are admitting that J-31, KAAN, and even more J-10 inductions will be limited or delayed for some time, due to economics, and we need a more capable evolution of the JF-17 design to meet the needs. A stop gap that can serve for the next 30 years and still be decently modern in the 2030s, perhaps requiring a MLU in the 2040s.

If this is the case, and considering much of the JF-17 systems aren’t that old, we could see new Airframes built and systems transferred over. The PAF is said to maintain their equipment superbly; look at the state of the 50+ year old Mirages.

So if this can be confirmed that this is an evolutionary design of the JF-17, then we should really compare the Gripen NG with the JF-17 Block 3, and looking at the evolving threat picture from the IAF, lay out the desired parameters for a Block 4 JF-17E/F Super Thunder.

If it’s just the KAAN, then I would implore them to drop the JF-17 name ahead of the PFX. It’s creating too much confusion.

Btw, in honor of the anniversary of Swift retort, to Indian military planners looking at Pakistan with evil intentions, Pakistan maybe undergoing a turbulent transformation, but it’s not over; Abhi Na Done.

 

[yashkun_]

It's KAAN modified according to our needs.

I don't think it's KAAN. It's most likely a 4.5++ gen semi stealth project. Listen to this vid of Wajahat Khan from 32:50 onwards. He mentions the PAF confirming the PF-X program and apparently getting an interface from china for this project. Also confirms the Azerbaijan sale indirectly through PAF.

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[ghazi52]

ENTEI
@ZEUS_PSF

To those who are asking me what is "JF-17 Thunder PFX" Though I don't know much/anything about it, however here is my analysis on "Thunder PFX".....
- It seems like PAF wants to develop & design something to bridge the gap between a 5th Generation fighter & a 4th Generation fighter.
- Something better than J-10C/B-III/Block-52+ & inferior than J-31/J-35 & KAAN [since both ]
- Something indigenous just like the "Thunder project" to phase out F-7P/PG, Mirage-III/V, A-5, basically to act as backbone in the future.
- Remember the initial name of the "Thunder project" was "Super-7/redesign the F-7", later it evolved into FC-1 or commonly known as "Thunder Project".
- However can't comment on the timelines of "Thunder PFX program", it seems like 2040 & beyond.- It will be something like South Korean KAI KF-21 Boramae.
- Please note that "Thunder PFX" is something too far into the future, moreover nothing officially available on this other than the "name" that came via PAF official documentary.
- Will require massive redesign of the current "JF-17 Thunder Airframe", since the current airframe has reached its "structural limitations" for any major upgrades.

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[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Perhaps they are admitting that J-31, KAAN, and even more J-10 inductions will be limited or delayed for some time, due to economics, and we need a more capable evolution of the JF-17 design to meet the needs. A stop gap that can serve for the next 30 years and still be decently modern in the 2030s, perhaps requiring a MLU in the 2040s.

If this is the case, and considering much of the JF-17 systems aren’t that old, we could see new Airframes built and systems transferred over. The PAF is said to maintain their equipment superbly; look at the state of the 50+ year old Mirages.

So if this can be confirmed that this is an evolutionary design of the JF-17, then we should really compare the Gripen NG with the JF-17 Block 3, and looking at the evolving threat picture from the IAF, lay out the desired parameters for a Block 4 JF-17E/F Super Thunder.

If it’s just the KAAN, then I would implore them to drop the JF-17 name ahead of the PFX. It’s creating too much confusion.

Btw, in honor of the anniversary of Swift retort, to Indian military planners looking at Pakistan with evil intentions, Pakistan maybe undergoing a turbulent transformation, but it’s not over; Abhi Na Done.

IMO the PAF is in a hurry to get hold on the next-gen stuffs that make a demonstrated difference, especially in the asymmetric & non-contact "robotic" regimes to charge like fast galloping horses against the elephant/bear-like adversaries. PFX, on JF17 platforms, may be to imbibe the most interesting specs of the TFX project: to have stealthy KIZILELMA, ANKA-3 etc. as AI driven wingmen while generating a dense EW envelop.....

 

[FuturePAF]

IMO the PAF is in a hurry to get hold on the next-gen stuffs that make a difference, especially in the asymmetric & non-contact "robotic" regime. PFX, on JF17 platforms, may be to imbibe the most interesting specs of the TFX project: to have stealthy KIZILELMA, ANKA-3 etc. as AI driven wingmen while generating a dense EW envelop.....

Which aspects of the T-FX do you think could be applied to an evolved version of the JF-17? Better and more real time responsive EW is Definitely one of them.

If economies of scale are to be applied and the PAF is going to invest in local production of the KAAN sooner or later, applying the build quality, to created a longer lifespan airframe for the JF-17 would definitely help.

Improvements in the rear of the plane, particularly in reducing the drag in tail cone area, could improve effective TWR and ability for the plane to super-cruise, as on the Gripen.

 

[Awwad]

I know KAAN is not coming before 2030 to 2032. Only question in my mind is PFX is KAAN or not. I am 98 % sure that it's KAAN.

Nope. What makes you think KAAN will even come after 2032? Assuming if Pakistan decides to induct KAAN (Which is unlikely since J-31 will be first inducted) even than KAAN cannot come in 2030s. Don't you think Turkish air force will like to induct atleast first few squadrons for itself? Secondly, PAF to induct 5th gen fighter jets with American engines is impossible. (Remember US even denied export of engines for Turkish helis, so forget advance engines for 5th gen fighter).

J-31 can come before 2032. KAAN (with Turkish engines) may come after 2040 (if at all).

For the next 15 years, PAF will try induct more J-10Cs and J-31s. and perhaps JF-17 (b3/b4) as well.

If you are persistent in bringing KAAN by 2032 than inventory may look like below:
- J-10Cs (~50) (considering a followup order of 25 more units in next 2-3 years)
- J-31s (1-10)
- KAANs (1-2) LOL!

So above inventory doesn't make sense at all financially / logistically / maintenance / training wise. I think PAF would be wise enough to not increase the burden of new type of platform until it has matured the other newly inducted platforms in good numbers.

It will be massive blunder to induct so many different types of platforms in short span of time without considering the logistics.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Nope. What makes you think KAAN will even come after 2032? Assuming if Pakistan decides to induct KAAN (Which is unlikely since J-31 will be first inducted) even than KAAN cannot come in 2030s. Don't you think Turkish air force will like to induct atleast first few squadrons for itself? Secondly, PAF to induct 5th gen fighter jets with American engines is impossible. (Remember US even denied export of engines for Turkish helis, so forget advance engines for 5th gen fighter).

J-31 can come before 2032. KAAN (with Turkish engines) may come after 2040 (if at all).

For the next 15 years, PAF will try induct more J-10Cs and J-31s. and perhaps JF-17 (b3/b4) as well.

If you are persistent in bringing KAAN by 2032 than inventory may look like below:
- J-10Cs (~50) (considering a followup order of 25 more units in next 2-3 years)
- J-31s (1-10)
- KAANs (1-2) LOL!

So above inventory doesn't make sense at all financially / logistically / maintenance / training wise. I think PAF would be wise enough to not increase the burden of new type of platform until it has matured the other newly inducted platforms in good numbers.

It will be massive blunder to induct so many different types of platforms in short span of time without considering the logistics.

The Pak Deep State may have tons of issues, but having enough ca$h to buy and produce the gadgets it deems necessary to checkmate India isn't one of them! The recent humongous purchases are a testimony to this assertion....

By the by, the TAI CEO and the Turkish analysts have stated the indigenous engines for KAAN would be ready by 2028. The Turkish defense industries' principle is: while others sleep we work, and while others walk we run.....

 

[Falcon26]

I don't think it's KAAN. It's most likely a 4.5++ gen semi stealth project. Listen to this vid of Wajahat Khan from 32:50 onwards. He mentions the PAF confirming the PF-X program and apparently getting an interface from china for this project. Also confirms the Azerbaijan sale indirectly through PAF.

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If this is true, it’s most likely PAF attempting to do with the JF-17 what the Indians have done with the Tejas with their MK2 variant.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

The Pak Deep State may have tons of issues, but having enough ca$h to buy and produce the gadgets it deems necessary to checkmate India isn't one of them! The recent humongous purchases are a testimony to this assertion....

By the by, the TAI CEO and the Turkish analysts have stated the indigenous engines for KAAN would be ready by 2028. The Turkish defense industries' principle is: while others sleep we work, and while others walk we run.....

First customer of KAAN will be TuAF, few sqds are for your airforce than it will available for export which takes time I think 2035-2040 will be good/reasonable time frame for Pakistan to induct KAAN in PAF

 

[Zarvan]

Perhaps they are admitting that J-31, KAAN, and even more J-10 inductions will be limited or delayed for some time, due to economics, and we need a more capable evolution of the JF-17 design to meet the needs. A stop gap that can serve for the next 30 years and still be decently modern in the 2030s, perhaps requiring a MLU in the 2040s.

If this is the case, and considering much of the JF-17 systems aren’t that old, we could see new Airframes built and systems transferred over. The PAF is said to maintain their equipment superbly; look at the state of the 50+ year old Mirages.

So if this can be confirmed that this is an evolutionary design of the JF-17, then we should really compare the Gripen NG with the JF-17 Block 3, and looking at the evolving threat picture from the IAF, lay out the desired parameters for a Block 4 JF-17E/F Super Thunder.

If it’s just the KAAN, then I would implore them to drop the JF-17 name ahead of the PFX. It’s creating too much confusion.

Btw, in honor of the anniversary of Swift retort, to Indian military planners looking at Pakistan with evil intentions, Pakistan maybe undergoing a turbulent transformation, but it’s not over; Abhi Na Done.

J-31 is not getting delayed neither J-10 C is coming in limited numbers. We have whole production line of JF-17. We simply cannot afford to shut it down. And we can't keep producing only JF-17 BLOCK III. Specially after really powerful engines are available with some main changes in JF-17 design we can come up with a Grippen E type version it would be game changer for us. Perhaps we can build a fighter version similar to Grippen E and also come up with an EW version. I have talked to few friends. They all think it's not KAAN which is being talked about here. It's JF-17 version similar to what SAAB did with Grippen E.

 

[Zarvan]

Nope. What makes you think KAAN will even come after 2032? Assuming if Pakistan decides to induct KAAN (Which is unlikely since J-31 will be first inducted) even than KAAN cannot come in 2030s. Don't you think Turkish air force will like to induct atleast first few squadrons for itself? Secondly, PAF to induct 5th gen fighter jets with American engines is impossible. (Remember US even denied export of engines for Turkish helis, so forget advance engines for 5th gen fighter).

J-31 can come before 2032. KAAN (with Turkish engines) may come after 2040 (if at all).

For the next 15 years, PAF will try induct more J-10Cs and J-31s. and perhaps JF-17 (b3/b4) as well.

If you are persistent in bringing KAAN by 2032 than inventory may look like below:
- J-10Cs (~50) (considering a followup order of 25 more units in next 2-3 years)
- J-31s (1-10)
- KAANs (1-2) LOL!

So above inventory doesn't make sense at all financially / logistically / maintenance / training wise. I think PAF would be wise enough to not increase the burden of new type of platform until it has matured the other newly inducted platforms in good numbers.

It will be massive blunder to induct so many different types of platforms in short span of time without considering the logistics.

J-10 C order is already way above 50. More and More J-10 C are coming, and final number would be way above 100. Like way above. Secondly J-31 will start coming soon. My guess is 1.5 to 2 years. KAAN would start coming in 2030 to 2032 and off course if we plan to induct 100 plus KAAN than each year we would get 8 to 10 at best. Even if we start receiving KAAN in 2030 it would take 7 to 8 years to fully complete those orders of KAAN. And if JF-17 PFX is a version of JF-17 like Grippen E than we would have that too also in really large numbers. J-10 C, KAAN, J-31 and let's suppose JF-17 PFX is Grippen E type thing all these would be at least 100 in number when inducted. Infact way above 100. Plus JF-17 BLOCK III And JF-17 Block 1 and 2 wil be serving and working as work horse.

 

[Zarvan]

If this is true, it’s most likely PAF attempting to do with the JF-17 what the Indians have done with the Tejas with their MK2 variant.

Best example is Grippen E for us. There is huge difference between earlier models of Grippen and Grippen E.

 

[FuturePAF]

J-31 is not getting delayed neither J-10 C is coming in limited numbers. We have whole production line of JF-17. We simply cannot afford to shut it down. And we can't keep producing only JF-17 BLOCK III. Specially after really powerful engines are available with some main changes in JF-17 design we can come up with a Grippen E type version it would be game changer for us. Perhaps we can build a fighter version similar to Grippen E and also come up with an EW version. I have talked to few friends. They all think it's not KAAN which is being talked about here. It's JF-17 version similar to what SAAB did with Grippen E.

So for this thread, let’s go with the assumption it’s a Block 4 JF-17, and we are aiming to match the Gripen NG. Therefore, what are the most important features being looked upon? EW is definitely one.

 

[UserUsing]

Another throey!
Is PAF thinking of converting old JF17s into loyal wingmans for TFX Kaan? Kaan and Awacs keep an eye, detect and destroy targets from safety using thier long range missiles while JF17s as wingmans serve as disposable assets, go deep into enemy territory and drop bombs? If they can automate these planes for cheap, it would be a great way to utilize 100+ old airframes!

PAF already has built some drones, they do have all source codes of JF... they should be able to accomplish this.

 

[AsaRad1]

I feel sorry for all the fanboys like Zarvan. They desperately wish for there to be a top-secret well-planned program going on but it's just brainfarts and huge claims with nothing to back them up practically.

They don't see how the Azm debacle went down and how people with first hand experience describe the behaviour of embarrassing babus.

Pathetic state of affairs.