JF-17 PFX program

[Zarvan]

Hazarat first few years for j31 PLAAF and PLAN were not interested in J-31 project and J-31 was totally company's internal project, recently PLAN showed interest in it after 2019-2020, so it takes time to be completed and matured

And why do you so confident that J-31 will come within 1.5/2 year time frame, give me the valid reasons for this argument

And you want PAF to induct unfinished project?

China was always interested in this plane. J-31 will have a Naval version it was always part of the plan. Even the pictures of prototype 3 which first emerged are from 2018. You seriously believe that after that China fell sleep and haven't produced a prototype 4 and 5 since then. It's 2024 not 2019. No, your hilarious assumption of unfinished project is based on the fact that they you assume we are not somehow being part of its development. Plus you are assuming that it's no where near completion beccause you have seen pictures of prototype 3 which came way back in 2018. And your final assumption is China is since then sleeping and haven't produced a prototype 4 and 5. China revealed videos of J-20 prototypes weapons testing ten years after those tests were done. By the time China revealed those pictures already several J-20 had been inducted by China.

 

[Deino]

China was always interested in this plane. J-31 will have a Naval version it was always part of the plan. Even the pictures of prototype 3 which first emerged are from 2018. You seriously believe that after that China fell sleep and haven't produced a prototype 4 and 5 since then. It's 2024 not 2019. No, your hilarious assumption of unfinished project is based on the fact that they you assume we are not somehow being part of its development. Plus you are assuming that it's no where near completion beccause you have seen pictures of prototype 3 which came way back in 2018. And your final assumption is China is since then sleeping and haven't produced a prototype 4 and 5. China revealed videos of J-20 prototypes weapons testing ten years after those tests were done. By the time China revealed those pictures already several J-20 had been inducted by China.

Show us just a single image of this third prototype? There was none in 2018 and even lesser a navalised one. And again: There is no J-35 so that the J-35 naval type is NOT a J-31 variant, but a navalised serial variant of the FC-31.

I think you still have no clue at all on this program, confuse all designations like FC-31, J-35 and J-35 as if they are the same, count any prototype several times in order to make the numbers look huge and in fact there are still only two FC-31 demonstrators (31001 & 31003) and at best three J-35 prototypes (350001, 350003 and maybe 350005).

is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Corax]

What people are failing to understand, PAF is no longer "guardian of skies" only, they have been transformed into hegemonic force which will dictate its will over adversaries in future wars/conflict. This change of role was clearly demonstrated against both India and Iran. This addition will be inline with this.

Plus, the global conflicts which are increasingly now been driven by faith/dogmas, not just geopolitics, are expediting this enhancement of capabilities. We are well and truly looking way beyond our region.

J31 is not a luxury, it's a necessity.

Let's not let delusions of grandeur after a couple of limited air operations distort reality, that's something your neighbours suffer from in Bollywood.

 

[PakAl]

I am not talking about final number. Just tell me the number of platforms for J-10Cs, J-31s and KAAN by 2035. Because that will make me understand Or make you understand the crux of the matter. In my thinking PAF will not go for a next platform until it has atleast 60+ aircrafts of the last aircraft type. so PAF will wait to go for J-31 until it has aquired atleast few more squadrons for J-10Cs that will push the timeline for J-31 aquisition.. Similarly, PAF will not be crazy enough to go for KAAN when it has inducted only 5-10 J-31s. PAF will wait until it has matured the platform in its service, so KAAN isn't going to come before 2040s ( if at all)

By 2040 Kaan will become a mature 5.5th generation platform, it will be used in battle with AI drones like Anka and Kilzimia, definitely the right time to Induct it to replace the F16s.

 

[PakAl]

Ok enjoy. Until you see J-31 in Pakistani colors and it won't be that long INSHALLAH. But I am telling your right now even than you would have some hilarious thing to say even than. So Good Luck to you.

InshaAllah J35s by 2032/2035 and Kaan close to 2040s, which will be 5.5+ generation plane, with use of AI and drones like Anka and Kilzimia. J35s will replace older Jf17s, Kaan will replace F16s.

 

[Taimoor]

Let's not let delusions of grandeur after a couple of limited air operations distort reality, that's something your neighbours suffer from in Bollywood.

If you think they were limited operation where you just bomb rather formidable adversaries and then force them not to escalate afterwards, you clearly dont understand the dynamics involved. On both occasions we raised the bar so high that adeversiers had to climb down the escalation ladder.

These are facts, not the silly talk of grandeur.

 

[Oscar]

Thanks for asking on my take on this and in fact I don't know! These blurry and too small images give barely a clue to come to any reasonable conclusion.

Indeed an MLU makes perfect sense, maybe a next step towards integration additional more modern systems and as such improved capabilities. Maybe to attract more customers or even the rumoured WS-13 BUT - and again contrary to what sum spin and fabricate together in their mind - NOTHING hints towards a 4.5Xth or even 5th generation development, nothing hints towards an KF-21-look alike with stealthy features, twin engines and at best two tails! This is all imagination based on hope and enthusiasm, but surely not on facts, since we have only little.

This one is just a regular JF-17 - not even a Batch 3 - and as such only a placeholder:

View attachment 22826

And even this one clearly shows no dramatic changes if ever any?! I has no twin tails, just one engine, no visible stealth features. IMO again just a placeholder or simply again a regular JF-17. But anyway surely NOTHING fancy like some want to portray.

View attachment 22827

Exactly, its too vague to speculate at this point. More importantly, we’ve heard so many mixed statements from the PAF (through AFM and press releases) on continuing the JF-17 program, then stopping it at 30 block 3s to go onto larger Aircraft, then the J-31 announcement and so on.

Finally, folks like @JamD and others have hinted at some personal fiefdoms having a field day with projects like AZM and NASTP that even if there are ideals of 4.5Gen++ projects - they cannot be done when you keep changing projects and goals on a whim every few months.

 

[SaadH]

This is another slide from the same presentation:
View attachment 22695
On the right is Turkish Aerospace Pakistans incorporation certificate from SECP, which has NOTHING to do with NASTP. Turkish Aerospace doesn't even have an office in NASTP. So I take their claims with a mountain of salt.


That being said, judging from the slide and discounting the usual false bravado, I think that PFX is the name given to an effort to deChinaofy the JF17. Notice the lack of the Chinese flag in a slide titled JF17 PFX. There have been conversations iniated by the PAF on this topic several times. The inclusion of the Iran flag is peculiar. I don't have an explanation for that.

Why, PAF not happy with the Chinese subsystems and components?

 

[Corax]

If you think they were limited operation where you just bomb rather formidable adversaries and then force them not to escalate afterwards, you clearly dont understand the dynamics involved. On both occasions we raised the bar so high that adeversiers had to climb down the escalation ladder.

These are facts, not the silly talk of grandeur.

Until the next time your opponents decide not to back down, I'd like to see how the PAF fairs when it suffers significant losses.

 

[SaadH]

we have been witnessing first ever AI based War (Gaza War) where the target dockets are created by AI and human in loop (who has to authorize) the kinetic strikes.

this Gaza war was used as testing ground and battle prove a new form of warfare!

You don't need creepy AI to indiscriminately slaughter thousands of civilians.

 

[Oscar]

Until the next time your opponents decide not to back down, I'd like to see how the PAF fairs when it suffers significant losses.

More importantly - the spirit that was shown the last time may be very diminished this time around

 

[Quwa]

I have to say you have been quite strong in your scepticism regarding quite a few things over the years. I remember how you were very adamant on the Airforces Monthly forum how the PLAF wasn't ordering the Su-35, remember that? And then you constantly writing off the Turks developing their own fifth gen fighter You constantly said the Turks couldn't do it...and here we are But I don't blame you, even though I found a lot of those things unrealistic, if the past couple of decades have taught us anything it's that the world can change very very quickly, in the most unexpected of way, and you only have to look at how far the likes of China and other countries have come in that time that you can't right anything off.

In fairness to @Deino he might call out some things as improbable (e.g., Turkiye developing a NGFA in record time), but he adjusts his opinion as the facts on the ground evolve. The job of an analyst is to assess the facts as they are to come to a conclusion.

However, Deino was right in his skepticism because Turkiye literally didn't design a modern jet fighter until the Hurjet and KAAN; the methods it leveraged to design those aircraft were new and untested (e.g., digital cloning); and, at times, it was tough to tell how much was Erdogan bluster and real Turkish defence policy. But as people followed the TFX closely, they (myself included) began realizing that Turkiye had a long-established (but underplayed) industrial and R&D base, one that rivals India, easily. They were quiet for decades because a lot of their work in the past went into supporting American and European defence programs in valuable ways, incl. the F-35 prior to the S-400 drama. @Oscar @JamD

As for "JF-17 PFX." I don't think it's necessarily to de-China-ify the JF-17; rather, it may be a local attempt to design and implement a MLU. So, they'll try leveraging original solutions (e.g., AESA radar, avionics, etc), 'get gud' at integration and testing, and gradually wean themselves off Chinese - or any foreign - assistance for configuring and upgrading fighters. The result may be de-China-ifying the JF-17, but I don't think that's the intent. E.g., if the Chinese have a sub-system that's really good, the PAF would seek it for the PFX.

This could play into the J-31 in that if the PFX works out, the PAF could re-apply the capacity it built for it to customize the J-31 along its preferred lines, with minimal help.

In 2018, the NY Times reported that the PAF (and AVIC) proposed setting up facilities under CPEC to manufacture NGFA subsystems - e.g., avionics, radars, and munitions - in Pakistan. The J-31 project could be an evolution of that idea.

Fighter Jets and Satellites​

According to the undisclosed proposal drawn up by the Pakistani Air Force and Chinese officials at the start of the year, a special economic zone under CPEC would be created in Pakistan to produce a new generation of fighter jets. For the first time, navigation systems, radar systems and onboard weapons would be built jointly by the countries at factories in Pakistan.
The proposal, confirmed by officials at the Ministry of Planning and Development, would expand China and Pakistan’s current cooperation on the JF-17 fighter jet, which is assembled at Pakistan’s military-run Kamra Aeronautical Complex in Punjab Province. The Chinese-designed jets have given Pakistan an alternative to the American-built F-16 fighters that have become more difficult to obtain as Islamabad’s relationship with Washington frays.
The plans are in the final stages of approval, but the current government is expected to rubber stamp the project, officials in Islamabad say.

For China, Pakistan could become a showcase for other countries seeking to shift their militaries away from American equipment and toward Chinese arms, Western diplomats said. And because China is not averse to selling such advanced weaponry as ballistic missiles — which the United States will not sell to allies like Saudi Arabia — the deal with Pakistan could be a steppingstone to a bigger market for Chinese weapons in the Muslim world.

China’s ‘Belt and Road’ Plan in Pakistan Takes a Military Turn (Published 2018)

Under a program China insisted was peaceful, Pakistan is cooperating on distinctly defense-related projects, including a secret plan to build new fighter jets.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Reichmarshal]

This thread till this point seems like a "pi$$in in the wind " contest.

 

[Reichmarshal]

The Chinese are presently winding down the J10C program to make way for j31/35 program.

Then with ur permission I too would like to pi$$ in the wind
Our induction of the J10c will not go beyond 2028/2030 as at that point avic will be producing j31/35 n the production of j10 would have stopped completely.
PAF would then be left with no other option but to induct j31....hence the PAF chiefs announcement

 

[kaku]

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but this is hot air that the PAF is blowing up the nation's behind.

Some facts:
1. The JF17 facilities at Kamra (AMF) are about to go dormant and the PAF is in a great panic to figure out something to do with them.
2. The PAF approached Turkish Aerospace for potential JF17 upgrade but the Turks rightly countered what about IP and dealing with China because you cant go about messing with JF17 in secret to which the PAFs reply was "don't worry sar!" and nothing. So this discussion went nowhere.
3. Turkish Aerospace has tried several times to rope in PAC into Kaan but PAC has failed to do so because of their utter incompetence and laziness and the desire to prop up NASTP and put it between everything.
4. PAF has a habit of lying and bragging. I know of several examples where things were shown at NASTP that were literally stolen slides from Turkish Aerospace. I won't go into details. But the point is that PAF likes to pretend it's collaborating MUCH more than it really is.

Considering these facts, if I had to guess what PFX is? It's some AVM's brainfart of an idea to keep the JF17 line running with something with the plan to figure something out along the way. Nothing more. There is no collaboration with Turkey. They don't want any part of someone's current brainfart that will be replaced by a totally different brainfart in a few months. Sounds like usual false bravado and grand plans and an official version of "he's my best friend" when he doesn't even want to acknowledge your existence.

Why production line at Kamra go dormant? it is not making any sense with this choice?

It was weird enough that after JF-17 Block 3, they had to go for J-10, and now they ending the production line. It is quite weird.