JF-17 PFX program

[PakAl]

suppose we have money for it , can we do it without us approval

Not without Usa permission, F16s is their plane.

 

[puttputt]

Correct albeit a very linear way of thinking. If companies spring up to cater for a niche low volume demand like submarine tegimented steel, they wouldn't last very long. That's not the way industrialised economies work. I mean if PAC has to resort to ordering wire harnesses from the Chinese for the JF17, what does that say about the state of Pakistani industry? there's no company in Pakistan that can make wire harnesses to the same spec, because there's little demand for any sort of wire harnesses in Pakistan, whether it's for aircraft or otherwise?

Perhaps, but the more common question you'll hear from Pakistani investors is, "I'm not setting up shop in Pakistan because of [corruption], [law and order], [red-tape], etc."

The reality is that the PAF doesn't play friendly with the private sector, and NESCOM is even less friendly. HIT surprisingly alright though.

The top-level bureaucratic and political environment towards productive business is generally toxic. I mean, the current establishment is putting taxes on freelancers after throttling their internet. What. The. FK. Who's gonna want to (even if they can) build a visible, targetable, and seizeable enterprise then?

IMO, with the right business climate and a fair-minded political leadership, you would see at least one or two Pakistani companies take up harness design and production within the country. They'd have access to the PAF market to drive that initial, upfront commercial jolt, and then build towards competing in the export market by reworking what they know about harnesses for other countries and use-cases.

 

[PakAl]

Also i guess he said mirages are also mostly retired only about 40-50 are in service now if i am not mistaken..

Some Mirages are nuclear capable so will not be retired anytime soon, some are in decent condition, the older ones are mostly retired. F7PG were only bought in early 2000s but are outdated and must retire soon.

J10CE - 20
JF17 1 2 3 dual - 156
F16s - 75
Mirage - 70
F7PGs - 50
Total planes 371.

We need more J10CEs, atleast 40 more will retire F7PGs and non nuclear Mirages, more Jf17 block 3s can be ordered but so far it looks like all eyes are on PFX.

 

[PakAl]

J-35A will likely come as the F-16A/Bs likely won't serve past 2040 from what I can assess. The PAF doesn't have any real options that can slot into the offensive spear-tip role.

J35s will come, with cutting edge Chinese weaponary, who can say no. Kaan will come after 2040s to replace F16s. Perfect for Paf. One big issue is which planes will be nuclear weapons capable, will Turkey and China allow it.

 

[PakAl]

I guess the money might be a issue for adding 1 or 2 sq of J-10's, and more JF-17's. Pakistan economy is struggling and with it the defense budget. But even if the numbers of old fighters are smaller than reported, we still have many Mirages and F7PG's to replace, from the old forum times, there were discussions that JF-17s will become the backbone, meaning replacing the F7s' and large number of Mirages but we are only at what? roughly 150+ JF-17's? The number should be around 200-250, but again it might be the finance that tie Air forces hands.

The idea of replacing the Mirages with that drone you mentioned is good but that begs the question what the PAF requirements of total Sq's ? do we have a number like IAF always talk about 42 operational sqs but they are always short too.

I don't think money is the issue for more Jf17s, we have approx 156 Jf17s, 20 J10CEs, 75 F16s. That is a good number but technology has advanced really fast, our priority is now focused on medium weight platform as alleged PFX, more range, powerful radar.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

Old Document, Not sure shared earlier or not but any way ...................

 

[Oscar]

the project is a the end of its life.

the JF-17s will start seeing retirement, particularly the first ones within the next decade.

the JF-17 filled a niche that existed once, its kinda a dying one though.

Light fighters are inherently limited in what capability they bring, alongside this, if its a low cap fighter, its a burden on limited resources when they could be better applied elsewhere.

the PAF will get smaller as time goes on, focusing on less, but higher end platforms, low cost and the next gen dont really go hand in hand, costs balloon, big air forces will only be for the elites.

PAF's best bet is to take the JF-17, recycle what can be recycled into a UCAV or whatever, but, really, no point in sinking money into JF-17, because now setting up an industry around it will result in a fighter that costs 200,300,400m a unit etc

There is another part of the JF-17 vs M3 route narrative that is being missed.

Pakistan didn’t necessarily have stable relationships anywhere except China.
The original ASR with ACM Shamim was 110 vipers ,mirages for strike and a replacement point interceptor for the F-6(eventually the F-7 a few years later)
Guided weapons were still in their nacent stage to PAF and the delta is still the best at low level smoothness for strike. The vipers were eventually to be equipped with sparrows per PAF ideals even by 85.

As things evolved and the concept of BVR came in the Super 7(which btw did fly in the J-7MF variant) based on a combination of needs and advice from Americans for the Chinese and yourself on needing a radar equipped intercept for countering the Soviet threat. As you realized you’re not getting those vipers you looked for a stop gap solution and kept evolving the design.

The Mirages btw were considered for an Atlas type upgrade - I had a first hand discussion as a young teen with head of PAC in a casual setting(where I found about the “lower rcs experiments” with the M3) but the problem was both funds and the need for engine upgrades to match the weight and more so technology which the french would not provide other than for their led upgrades.
The ROSE wasn’t the only option - Dassault was happy to upgrade you to the Atar 50C but at an arm twisting price because they wanted you to also pay an arm and a leg for the M2k. So their technique as always is to charge exorbitant for what you want so you think its not worth it and then say why don’t you buy this instead.

They did the same with the 2nd attempt at M2k in early 2000s to force you to buy Rafale.

The Cheetah wasnt off the table structurally but also because a lot of its systems came from Israeli and other sources. Normally you are ok with it but there are idealists in the PAF and beyond who feel their “deen is bharasht” if they touch jewish stuff.

So not exactly the simplest choice on M3 vs JF-17 because the story is not simple. Its the same with M2k vs F-16 or Gripen vs F-16.
You will want F-16s - have 40 years experience on them(20 when you went for peace drive and upgrades) - M2k was independent of it because you wanted a stable strike platform - and the Gripen was never truly considered because you already had committed to a light fighter/interceptor with BVR in the JF-17

 

[gamaji]

This was one of the structural flaws with CPEC too, actually. They brute-forced, front-loaded the energy and logistics capacity without the industrial need to drive its use. The assumption was that it was solely the lack of infrastructure that choked industry growth, but no, it was the political and bureaucratic mismanagement at the top that actually scuttled our manufacturing.

I think, an important correction is due here.
The laid out plans and the way CPEC was progressing, it was expected that Pakistan would encounter a huge demand for electricity by 2020. Multiple export oriented special industrial/economic zones were expected to materialize and be functional in Pakistan by then. But call it a bad luck for Pakistan or whatever, the internal sabotage (topping of PMLN government and installation of IK via massive electoral rigging) derailed Pakistan from taking off at a crucial time.

It's not really the first time that Pakistan was pushed into a blind well at such a critical time. When Gen. Zia ul Haq;s organized Afghan jihad was about to succeed in pushing the Soviets back from Afghanistan, Zia with all his top military cadre was removed from the scene in a plane crash and a new government installed in Pakistan. That government neither had any understanding of the whole jihadi network in Afghanistan and beyond nor believed in that type of strategic set up and so messed up everything. As a result, Pakistan not only was deprived of the potential fruits of that historic achievement but even suffered from all the negative fall out of one of the greatest guerrilla war ever fought in human history.

 

[maverik]

Like, as much as this is a gorgeous scheme and aircraft...
View attachment 164404

The world is specifically moving away from these sorts of colours, into low vis stuff, because it makes it far harder to spot.

Tell me, where in Pakistan is this sort of colour scheme going to make the J-10 harder to spot? Yea fair enough if we were doing low level stuff over a tropical/jungle-y terrain, but we're not. Pakistan is grey and brown. This thing sticks out like a sore thumb,

Establishing a secure connection ...

key part to look at is british a/c paint during the gulf war.

The PAF is not being run on merit effectively, but seemingly, personal desire. If this was to be an ode to the squadrons history, i dont see why you'd paint all of their aircraft in this scheme, its counter productive really, if you're flying medium/high level ops, you want a grey-er scheme to be harder to spot. If you're a pilot, scanning side to side at 30k feet, i bet a green dot is going to be far easier to spot than a low vis grey one like literally everyone has moved to

or they are painted in this scheme to be park under trees near the motorway incase bases are hit ? this is perfect shceme for that

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

This is exactly the vision behind PFX project. It has pretty decent timeline. Prototype: 2028 - 2029
Testing: 2029 - 2031
Limited production: 2031 - 2033
Serial production: 2033 - 2035

Is it achievable with current state of Pakistan defense industry? It’s pretty much possible since Turkey is willing to transfer technology to Pakistan for Manufacturing of Drone and also KAAN project. It’s possible that Pakistan might be able to accomplish is with the help of Turkey and China’s support. It will most likely designed with Chinese engine specifications. I am being overly optimistic but we don’t have many choices.

You will see many people will share info about Mirage Rebuild factory to be upgraded PFX project with Saudi Funds.

 

[That_Guy]

You will see many people will share info about Mirage Rebuild factory to be upgraded PFX project with Saudi Funds.

Its all fanboys speculating.

The Saudis aren't going to fund anything, and Pakistanis need to stop being delusional.

The Saudis merely (once again) used Pakistan to put pressure on the US, nothing more. The so called "defense pact" is worth nothing more than the paper it was written on.

Stop falling for their tricks.

 

[Faani83]

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[Faani83]

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[Pakistanithinktank]

Its all fanboys speculating.

The Saudis aren't going to fund anything, and Pakistanis need to stop being delusional.

The Saudis merely (once again) used Pakistan to put pressure on the US, nothing more. The so called "defense pact" is worth nothing more than the paper it was written on.

Stop falling for their tricks.

I am trying to embarrass you or criticizes you. your post is without grasping the broader geopolitical context. Since May 2025, Pakistan’s trajectory has clearly shifted upward, the steady stream of foreign officials visiting the country speaks for itself. We haven’t seen this level of engagement in years.

As I’ve said many times, none of us has a magic wand to predict the future. Will Bahrain and Saudi Arabia support PFX project? We don’t know. All we can do is analyze the facts in front of us and draw reasonable conclusions. Will the PFX project ultimately succeed? Time will decide that. But right now, the level of discussion around it is significant. Several retired Air Force officers have even confirmed that PFX has a dedicated team and a project lead actively working on the design phase of it.

1. Air Commodore (Retd.) Khalid Chishti’s key message is:

PFX is real, structured, staffed, and already in the design phase but it is a long‑term, step‑by‑step program, not a quick jump to a 5th‑gen jet.

2. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu

Venue: PAF events, interviews, PAC briefings
Statements:

• PFX is part of PAF’s “Next Generation Air Combat System (NGACS)” roadmap.
• Pakistan is pursuing two tracks:• PFX‑Alpha (JF‑17 evolution)
• PFX (new fighter) for the 2030s

• Emphasized indigenization, sovereignty, and reduced dependence on foreign suppliers.
• Confirmed that PFX is not a 5th‑gen stealth fighter, but a 4.5+ gen platform.

3. Air Vice Marshal (Retd.) Shahid Latif

Venue: TV interviews, defense panels
Statements:

• PFX is the logical continuation of the JF‑17 program.
• Pakistan aims to increase its design authority in the next fighter.
• Confirmed that PFX will be twin‑engine and larger than JF‑17.
• Stated that PFX is meant to replace F‑16s in the long term.

4. Air Commodore (Retd.) Kaiser Tufail

Venue: Articles, seminars, interviews
Statements:

• PFX is a 4.5‑generation fighter, not a stealth aircraft.
• The biggest bottleneck is engine selection.
• Pakistan must build industrial capability first, then pursue advanced fighters.
• PFX is meant to give PAF a heavier, long range platform.

5. Air Commodore (Retd.) Jamal Hussain

Venue: Defense commentary, think‑tank discussions
Statements:

• PFX is a multi‑phase program, not a single aircraft.
• PFX‑Alpha is the first experimental step.
• The twin engine PFX will require deep Chinese partnership.
• PFX is designed to complement, not replace, J‑10C and JF‑17.

6. PAC Kamra Leadership (Various Officials)

Venue: IDEAS 2024, PAC briefings
Statements:

• Confirmed the twin engine PFX concept displayed at IDEAS.
• Stated that PFX development is targeted for completion before 2030, with service entry in the 2030s.
• Emphasized local manufacturing, avionics development, and EW sovereignty.
• Confirmed that PFX‑Alpha (JF‑17 Block 4) is already in development.

7. PAF Spokespersons (Official Statements)

Venue: Media briefings
Statements:

• PFX is part of PAF’s future force structure.
• It will feature:• AESA radar
• Advanced EW
• Long‑range weapons
• Stealth shaping
• It is intended to be a 4.5‑generation fighter.


Do you want more ?

 

[Corax]

I am trying to embarrass you or criticizes you. your post is without grasping the broader geopolitical context. Since May 2025, Pakistan’s trajectory has clearly shifted upward, the steady stream of foreign officials visiting the country speaks for itself. We haven’t seen this level of engagement in years.

As I’ve said many times, none of us has a magic wand to predict the future. Will Bahrain and Saudi Arabia support PFX project? We don’t know. All we can do is analyze the facts in front of us and draw reasonable conclusions. Will the PFX project ultimately succeed? Time will decide that. But right now, the level of discussion around it is significant. Several retired Air Force officers have even confirmed that PFX has a dedicated team and a project lead actively working on the design phase of it.

1. Air Commodore (Retd.) Khalid Chishti’s key message is:

PFX is real, structured, staffed, and already in the design phase but it is a long‑term, step‑by‑step program, not a quick jump to a 5th‑gen jet.

2. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu

Venue: PAF events, interviews, PAC briefings
Statements:

• PFX is part of PAF’s “Next Generation Air Combat System (NGACS)” roadmap.
• Pakistan is pursuing two tracks:• PFX‑Alpha (JF‑17 evolution)
• PFX (new fighter) for the 2030s

• Emphasized indigenization, sovereignty, and reduced dependence on foreign suppliers.
• Confirmed that PFX is not a 5th‑gen stealth fighter, but a 4.5+ gen platform.

3. Air Vice Marshal (Retd.) Shahid Latif

Venue: TV interviews, defense panels
Statements:

• PFX is the logical continuation of the JF‑17 program.
• Pakistan aims to increase its design authority in the next fighter.
• Confirmed that PFX will be twin‑engine and larger than JF‑17.
• Stated that PFX is meant to replace F‑16s in the long term.

4. Air Commodore (Retd.) Kaiser Tufail

Venue: Articles, seminars, interviews
Statements:

• PFX is a 4.5‑generation fighter, not a stealth aircraft.
• The biggest bottleneck is engine selection.
• Pakistan must build industrial capability first, then pursue advanced fighters.
• PFX is meant to give PAF a heavier, long range platform.

5. Air Commodore (Retd.) Jamal Hussain

Venue: Defense commentary, think‑tank discussions
Statements:

• PFX is a multi‑phase program, not a single aircraft.
• PFX‑Alpha is the first experimental step.
• The twin engine PFX will require deep Chinese partnership.
• PFX is designed to complement, not replace, J‑10C and JF‑17.

6. PAC Kamra Leadership (Various Officials)

Venue: IDEAS 2024, PAC briefings
Statements:

• Confirmed the twin engine PFX concept displayed at IDEAS.
• Stated that PFX development is targeted for completion before 2030, with service entry in the 2030s.
• Emphasized local manufacturing, avionics development, and EW sovereignty.
• Confirmed that PFX‑Alpha (JF‑17 Block 4) is already in development.

7. PAF Spokespersons (Official Statements)

Venue: Media briefings
Statements:

• PFX is part of PAF’s future force structure.
• It will feature:• AESA radar
• Advanced EW
• Long‑range weapons
• Stealth shaping
• It is intended to be a 4.5‑generation fighter.


Do you want more ?

All these "officials" were talking about "directed energy weapons" on project Azm...where did that end up? Not to mention, some of these claims seem to contradict each other.