JF-17 PFX program

[Bratva]

Chengdu has a business interest to not hand everything over - it doesn’t want to hand over control to a customer just yet. They blocked integration requests for non-Chinese equipment as well at times by citing odd reasons.

Found this on internet. Authenticity may be an issue but in the context of this discussion, it does seem plausible

 

[arjunk]

They would be really expensive but we can afford 400 Jf17s, the same way we would need atleast 300 5th generation planes, a cost effective plane fits the bill and then another higher end plane like Kaan

JF-17 Block III is not a cheap F-7 replacement like Block-I. And 300 5th Gen planes in PAF's measly 1 billion dollar budget is impossible

 

[FuturePAF]

Can someone translate this video? We don’t really get much commentary from Chinese military watchers, but this channel seems to indicate, from the pictures, that the PFX is the JF-17’s answer to the Gripen NG, but they show a semi-stealthy JF-17 in the thumbnail and mentions the WS-19 in the video.

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[PakAl]

JF-17 Block III is not a cheap F-7 replacement like Block-I. And 300 5th Gen planes in PAF's measly 1 billion dollar budget is impossible

I didnt mean they will order 300 in one go but over the decades till late 2050s. We will have to get phase out all 4th and 4.5 generation at some point just like we are phasing out 3rd generation planes.

 

[Oscar]

Can someone translate this video? We don’t really get much commentary from Chinese military watchers, but this channel seems to indicate, from the pictures, that the PFX is the JF-17’s answer to the Gripen NG, but they show a semi-stealthy JF-17 in the thumbnail and mentions the WS-19 in the video.

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@Deino , any repute on this gentleman who is showing up in translation as “inspector lee”

 

[FuturePAF]

JF-17 Block III is not a cheap F-7 replacement like Block-I. And 300 5th Gen planes in PAF's measly 1 billion dollar budget is impossible

Everything comes back to the economy and buy in by the public to grow it.

 

[FuturePAF]

@Deino , any repute on this gentleman who is showing up in translation as “inspector lee”

Thanks for running it by @Deino
I too want to know how credible this Inspector Lei is. I think I’ve seen him interviewed on real CCTV discussing military matters on YouTube but I’m not 100% sure.

 

[Deino]

@Deino , any repute on this gentleman who is showing up in translation as “inspector lee”

In fact, since I do not understand any spoken Chinese it is a bit difficult to judge, however from what i read about him, his broadcasts is more for infotainment than credible reporting on China news. He also seems to have the habit to post unconfirmed stuff in a somewhat direct manner, so that one might think that the rumours are true or even confirmed.

As such, I won't overrate him or what he tells.

 

[Ak01]

Found this on internet. Authenticity may be an issue but in the context of this discussion, it does seem plausible

not wrong, ive heard many stories about chinese extortion, direct from the mouth of high ups at pac- theres business interests and theres extortion, the stories are more in line with the latter...

 

[FuturePAF]

The JF-17 program is expected to be wrapped up by 2025 and PAF will be buying J-10C and FC-31. But people have underestimated PAF’s vision. It seeks to build the ultimate Xiaolong with PFX - Pakistan Fighter Experimental which will be a semi-stealth version. Combined with FC-31 it means PAF will have both quality and quantity. But is it possible to convert Xiaolong into a stealth fighter?

Unfortunately, its size goes against this ambition. Currently its power plant RD-93 generates 5 Tons with 8.5 Tons total with added wet thrust. Even if we throw the WS-13 it will get 9.3 tons. In order to make it feasible we need at least WS-19 with 12 tons of thrust. Unfortunately, in order to make it a stealth fighter, the inlet of WS-19 will need to be specially designed and we already need to work on the VTOL variant of FC-31 for ships and an airforce version. Then, it drooping tail needs to be replaced with a V tail. This is easy to do with Cheng Fei’s help. Then, because of its size, it cannot have a fully buried magazine. We can at most give it a semi-buried magazine in which it can carry two medium range air-to-air missiles. We may be able to give two semi-buried air to ground bomblets in the back but Pakistan will need to invest in stealth cocoons. And once you apply this air power you will definitely want bigger missiles for air to air, air to ground, anti radiation etc. Thus the cost of making it stealth vs benefits it provides is too high. But PAF might say this is just an experiment to build cheap semi-stealth fighters. I think it’s better for PAF to buy more FC-31s. In the end, it will definitely give a psychological shock to the Indian airforce.

NOTE: This is an approximation from memory after repeatedly stopping the video and looking at the translation. Please double check.

Thank you for the translation.

 

[EternalMortal]

My 2 cents from my very limited knowledge

1) Calling it JF-17 PFX maybe for marketing purposes to say "hey look THIS is the future of JF-17 program so you're missing out by not buying into it right away". However, as others have said, it would be hard to make sweeping changes without making a new design. So in reality even if the new plane is part of the JF-17 program, it will be essentially a clean sheet design with maybe some design commonalities with the OG to reduce costs.

2) It won't be a stealth fighter. We don't have the ability to make a 5th gen. In any case, 4.5++ will be relevant for decades to come. You don't need a 5th gen for everything Besides in the future the lines b/w gens will be blurred. For e.g. would it still only a 4th gen if the only thing it's missing is stealth but has many other characteristics of 5.5 or 6 gen?

3) This may be the PAFs actual real attempt to build local industrial & knowledge capacity. We made some progress with JF-17 but ultimately failed to fully capitalize on it and we still don't have the ability to fully make it in-house. Plus, given that even with the JF-17 we have issues getting everything we want from the Chinese at the price we want which needs to be addressed.

4) 5th gen may be out of our reach but 4.5+ is very doable. We're not starting from zero and the tech isn't cutting edge anymore.

 

[FuturePAF]

The PFX design still shows it has a single tail. If that design remains the case, then at most we will see it become like the Gripen NG, wheels moved out to the wings and some space made for some further improvements over the Block 3; redesign the intakes for the WS-19, reduce its RCS and other signatures while enhancing it’s sensors (such as an IRST on the nose) and comms (better datalink and SDRs) as well as a towed decoy system.

This is probably the only realistic trajectory for the JF-17 PFX design. Anything more and it would end up being a completely new design, with a much higher price tag.

Having said that, IMHO, considering this will be the backbone of the fleet, studying how much more it would cost to go to a “Pelikan tail” design (as on the final design of the X-32) should be considered. We are looking at a fleet of nearly 200 planes or more than 50% of the fleet. Singature reduction will go a long way to dealing with the current and emerging threat picture, not to mention sales prospects. The rafale isn’t stealth, and it carry’s its weapons externally, but it has a relatively small signature. That is a good model to aim towards for the JF-17, IMHO. The KF-21, even without its weapons bay seems too much of an advancement, but the Rafale is at the limits of signature management of a 4th gen jet.

Perhaps a “happy medium” would be the Gripen “XMLU” design


Source:http://gripen4canada.blogspot.com/p/artists-rendering-of-semi-stealth-gripen.html?m=1

The PAF should look at the Have Glass F-16s. Significant reduction in RCS, and we already know the other improvements to the F-16 on other variants.

 

[uucc001]

To be honest. The development of fifth-generation aircraft requires two basic conditions: the first is a wind tunnel; the second is an omnidirectional microwave chamber. These two are indispensable. Without these two, the fifth-generation phones developed are all fake.

 

[Ali_Baba]

To be honest. The development of fifth-generation aircraft requires two basic conditions: the first is a wind tunnel; the second is an omnidirectional microwave chamber. These two are indispensable. Without these two, the fifth-generation phones developed are all fake.

And Pakistan has neither so i dont see how it can develop and validate anything in Pakistan ? ( unless i missed some news that Pakistan has a wind-tunnel that can test prototype designs ? )

 

[uucc001]

And Pakistan has neither so i dont see how it can develop and validate anything in Pakistan ? ( unless i missed some news that Pakistan has a wind-tunnel that can test prototype designs ? )

It can be sent to China. Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Factory has both.