JF-17 PFX program

I'm unsure how any "project" of any respectable calibre makes sense in Pakistan when you simply do not have the funds to comfortably support it from start to finish.

Then there is the STEM knowledge base required and physical infrastracture machinery for testing.

I wish Pakistan the very best but it must address these fundamental issues directly, STEM graduate pipeline to fill its research centres and an adequate monetary pool.

The rest is noise.
 
Fair points. Which is also why I think the WS-19, with its significant improvement in electrical power (even more so than the improvement in thrust) and heat control of electrical systems will be necessary to power the systems that will determine battles. Also, I agree the gun is less relevant, but I think it is still needed in certain missions, such as combat patrol at sea or along a border where fighters could operate close enough that a fight could close to WVR combat.
I remember that the Chinese Journal of Aeronautics once published a paper by a top Chinese fighter jet design expert (a very authoritative figure, though I can't recall his name). This paper studied the integrated thermal management system of fighter jets.

In short:
Previously, each subsystem of a fighter jet had its own separate cooling system. These cooling systems operated independently and were not interconnected. The author's research, however, focused on a complete thermal management system that connects all the cooling systems on the fighter jet into one large system, managing all the components that require cooling. Individual subsystems no longer need separate cooling systems.

I don't know how far Chinese researchers have progressed in this area. But this represents an important directional change.
 
I remember that the Chinese Journal of Aeronautics once published a paper by a top Chinese fighter jet design expert (a very authoritative figure, though I can't recall his name). This paper studied the integrated thermal management system of fighter jets.

In short:
Previously, each subsystem of a fighter jet had its own separate cooling system. These cooling systems operated independently and were not interconnected. The author's research, however, focused on a complete thermal management system that connects all the cooling systems on the fighter jet into one large system, managing all the components that require cooling. Individual subsystems no longer need separate cooling systems.

I don't know how far Chinese researchers have progressed in this area. But this represents an important directional change.
One minor piece of damage could lead to the entire jet becoming inoperational in this scenario, no?
 
One minor piece of damage could lead to the entire jet becoming inoperational in this scenario, no?
This is an engineering problem.

During flight, the cooling requirements of the various subsystems of a fighter jet are dynamic, not constant. When operating independently, some subsystems typically have low workloads, and their cooling systems operate at low power. However, when they suddenly need to operate at very high power, their cooling systems become insufficient.
The purpose of an integrated thermal management system is to dynamically allocate this cooling capacity to achieve optimal performance. I am unable to explain in more detail how it dynamically allocates this capacity. You can refer to this paper in the Chinese Journal of Aeronautics for more information.
 
I remember that the Chinese Journal of Aeronautics once published a paper by a top Chinese fighter jet design expert (a very authoritative figure, though I can't recall his name). This paper studied the integrated thermal management system of fighter jets.

In short:
Previously, each subsystem of a fighter jet had its own separate cooling system. These cooling systems operated independently and were not interconnected. The author's research, however, focused on a complete thermal management system that connects all the cooling systems on the fighter jet into one large system, managing all the components that require cooling. Individual subsystems no longer need separate cooling systems.

I don't know how far Chinese researchers have progressed in this area. But this represents an important directional change.
The F-35 has a similar central cooling system, and the current work is on doubling electrical power in the f-35 while also improving cooling.
 
I'm unsure how any "project" of any respectable calibre makes sense in Pakistan when you simply do not have the funds to comfortably support it from start to finish.

Then there is the STEM knowledge base required and physical infrastracture machinery for testing.

I wish Pakistan the very best but it must address these fundamental issues directly, STEM graduate pipeline to fill its research centres and an adequate monetary pool.

The rest is noise.

Whatever Pakistan has achieved to date, it has done so without sufficient funds, technical capability, an industrial base, or even a logical path forward. Yet, Pakistan succeeded. Every milestones Pakistan achieved often defy conventional economic and industrial logic. Many things are not as they appear.
 
@Michael

As they become more affordable and ubiquitous with 5th and 6th gen R&D, there is the increased use more modern carbon fiber that is thermally optimized, to reduce IR signature, especially at key places on the aircraft; Intakes, leading edges and tail, at the nose (behind the radome). Any estimate what these materials would cost to implement at these key locations if not over larger parts of the aircraft?

Furthermore, with datalinks as with AESA radars, we will probably invisible warfare between aircraft. AESA radars trying to jam or fry the other guys electronics, while datalinks or ew suites trying to jam but also insert malware into the other’s network.
 
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Whatever Pakistan has achieved to date, it has done so without sufficient funds, technical capability, an industrial base, or even a logical path forward. Yet, Pakistan succeeded. Every milestones Pakistan achieved often defy conventional economic and industrial logic. Many things are not as they appear.
Designing and building an R&D ecosystem for the blueprints and manufacturing of advanced fighter jets is leagues above anything Pakistan has built.

I hope you don't use nuclear weapons as a counter to the above statement because while they hold significant value the complexity is not the same.

At some point you have to accept that funds matter. Miracles will not always save you, you have to start doing things proper. Vibes only get you so far - that's the difference between the first and third world.
 
@Michael

As they become more affordable and ubiquitous with 5th and 6th gen R&D, there is the increased use more modern carbon fiber that is thermally optimized, to reduce IR signature, especially at key places on the aircraft; Intakes, leading edges and tail, at the nose (behind the radome). Any estimate what these materials would cost to implement at these key locations if not over larger parts of the aircraft?

Furthermore, with datalinks as with AESA radars, we will probably invisible warfare between aircraft. AESA radars trying to jam or fry the other guys electronics, while datalinks or ew suites trying to jam but also insert malware into the other’s network.
The design and manufacturing of fighter jets is not simply a matter of piling up technologies, but rather a highly precise discipline of product engineering. It is first based on the constraints of the customer's usage requirements, then selects appropriate technologies from a pool of available options, and finally combines them into a precisely coordinated technological complex.

In this process, any change in one parameter can potentially lead to wider-ranging changes. This is something that many military enthusiasts often overlook. People always want to incorporate all the best technologies, but often ignore the interconnected changes they cause to other parameters.

Regarding your question, I cannot give you an accurate answer. I can only give you my personal feeling (a very strong personal feeling, not entirely rational).

Stealth design is one of the key performance indicators for modern fighter jets, but it is not the most crucial one. We need to find a certain balance in this factor.

The risks of "stealth technology." Fighter jet stealth design is a relative attribute, not an absolute one. Stealth and anti-stealth are two opposing technologies that are constantly evolving. Modern anti-stealth technology is developing rapidly. In the future, to what extent will "stealth fighter jets" be able to remain invisible? And to what extent will anti-stealth technology develop? No one can guarantee the answer.
What if, and I mean *if*, at some point in the future, hundreds of thousands of low-Earth orbit internet satellites were secretly equipped with a large number of sensors for military reconnaissance? This could create a completely seamless, gapless "eye in the sky." Simultaneously, these satellites would be supported by a network of AI computing clusters with incredible processing power. In that scenario, what "stealth weapons" could possibly escape their observation and tracking? ------ If we invest too heavily in the "stealth capabilities" of fighter jets at this stage, it will lead to immeasurable losses if such a situation arises in the future. (This doesn't mean we shouldn't invest at all, but rather that we need to balance our investments.)

Regarding electronic warfare, it also follows a trend of cyclical development.

In short, current advancements in weapons development by various countries do not necessarily translate into superiority in actual combat. True leadership is based on a solid foundation of technology and industry, and the ability to adapt and respond quickly.
 
Designing and building an R&D ecosystem for the blueprints and manufacturing of advanced fighter jets is leagues above anything Pakistan has built.

I hope you don't use nuclear weapons as a counter to the above statement because while they hold significant value the complexity is not the same.

At some point you have to accept that funds matter. Miracles will not always save you, you have to start doing things proper. Vibes only get you so far - that's the difference between the first and third world.


Dear to clarify: I view these as obstacles, not limitations. My argument isn’t that Pakistan should bypass R&D or ignore the necessity of a robust industrial base—I fully agree those are vital for long-term sovereignty. However, Pakistan’s history is defined by achieving the 'impossible' without the luxury of conventional prerequisites.

Ultimately, this is the distinction between a 'professional' approach and a 'doer' approach. While the First World relies on a linear, highly funded professional system to innovate, Pakistan has demonstrated a unique capacity to succeed through a 'doer' mindset. We don’t wait for the perfect ecosystem to materialize; we build capability while simultaneously navigating constraints. Our past achievements weren't mere miracles; they were the result of an unconventional logic that allows us to bypass traditional industrial cycles to deliver results when they are needed most.

While funds certainly matter, they aren't the only currency. Intellectual capital and strategic partnerships often fill the void where local industrial systems are thin. It is the difference between saying, 'We can’t start until the system is in place,' versus, 'We start with what we have and build the system along the way.' I am not suggesting this is the perfect—or even the ideal—approach, but it is our reality, and it works.
 
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The design and manufacturing of fighter jets is not simply a matter of piling up technologies, but rather a highly precise discipline of product engineering. It is first based on the constraints of the customer's usage requirements, then selects appropriate technologies from a pool of available options, and finally combines them into a precisely coordinated technological complex.

In this process, any change in one parameter can potentially lead to wider-ranging changes. This is something that many military enthusiasts often overlook. People always want to incorporate all the best technologies, but often ignore the interconnected changes they cause to other parameters.

Regarding your question, I cannot give you an accurate answer. I can only give you my personal feeling (a very strong personal feeling, not entirely rational).

Stealth design is one of the key performance indicators for modern fighter jets, but it is not the most crucial one. We need to find a certain balance in this factor.

The risks of "stealth technology." Fighter jet stealth design is a relative attribute, not an absolute one. Stealth and anti-stealth are two opposing technologies that are constantly evolving. Modern anti-stealth technology is developing rapidly. In the future, to what extent will "stealth fighter jets" be able to remain invisible? And to what extent will anti-stealth technology develop? No one can guarantee the answer.
What if, and I mean *if*, at some point in the future, hundreds of thousands of low-Earth orbit internet satellites were secretly equipped with a large number of sensors for military reconnaissance? This could create a completely seamless, gapless "eye in the sky." Simultaneously, these satellites would be supported by a network of AI computing clusters with incredible processing power. In that scenario, what "stealth weapons" could possibly escape their observation and tracking? ------ If we invest too heavily in the "stealth capabilities" of fighter jets at this stage, it will lead to immeasurable losses if such a situation arises in the future. (This doesn't mean we shouldn't invest at all, but rather that we need to balance our investments.)

Regarding electronic warfare, it also follows a trend of cyclical development.

In short, current advancements in weapons development by various countries do not necessarily translate into superiority in actual combat. True leadership is based on a solid foundation of technology and industry, and the ability to adapt and respond quickly.
Yes, a balance must be maintained, so any design is in “harmony” between its components and overall function. Having said that, technology is advancing, and while we need not necessary have to built a clean sheet design, creating a new design internally maybe necessary. Akin to the supper hornet or Gripen E, the JF-17 evolution needs to advance to be capable for the next 30 years.
 
Yes, a balance must be maintained, so any design is in “harmony” between its components and overall function. Having said that, technology is advancing, and while we need not necessary have to built a clean sheet design, creating a new design internally maybe necessary. Akin to the supper hornet or Gripen E, the JF-17 evolution needs to advance to be capable for the next 30 years.
If we discuss within the established framework of the JF-17 fighter jet project, namely "lightweight" and "cost-effective," then we can delve into more detailed discussions.

However, if we deviate from this framework, it will involve extremely complex international relations on which no consensus can be reached. We will never reach an agreement, and this topic will devolve into an endless and meaningless war of words.
Dear to clarify: I view these as obstacles, not limitations. My argument isn’t that Pakistan should bypass R&D or ignore the necessity of a robust industrial base—I fully agree those are vital for long-term sovereignty. However, Pakistan’s history is defined by achieving the 'impossible' without the luxury of conventional prerequisites.

Ultimately, this is the distinction between a 'professional' approach and a 'doer' approach. While the First World relies on a linear, highly funded professional system to innovate, Pakistan has demonstrated a unique capacity to succeed through a 'doer' mindset. We don’t wait for the perfect ecosystem to materialize; we build capability while simultaneously navigating constraints. Our past achievements weren't mere miracles; they were the result of an unconventional logic that allows us to bypass traditional industrial cycles to deliver results when they are needed most.

While funds certainly matter, they aren't the only currency. Intellectual capital and strategic partnerships often fill the void where local industrial systems are thin. It is the difference between saying, 'We can’t start until the system is in place,' versus, 'We start with what we have and build the system along the way.' I am not suggesting this is the perfect—or even the ideal—approach, but it is our reality, and it works.
Regarding the question of whether Pakistan needs to strive for 100% local manufacturing of the JF-17 fighter jet, I have a suggestion:

You can copy and paste the following text and have any AI answer it.

Of all the countries in the world, and disregarding economic factors for a moment, which country could independently produce disposable lighters, from raw materials to the final product, without relying on any foreign country?

This problem seems simple at first glance, but the underlying issues are very complex. We can continue the discussion once our friends truly understand these issues.
 
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If we discuss within the established framework of the JF-17 fighter jet project, namely "lightweight" and "cost-effective," then we can delve into more detailed discussions.

However, if we deviate from this framework, it will involve extremely complex international relations on which no consensus can be reached. We will never reach an agreement, and this topic will devolve into an endless and meaningless war of words.

Regarding the question of whether Pakistan needs to strive for 100% local manufacturing of the JF-17 fighter jet, I have a suggestion:

You can copy and paste the following text and have any AI answer it.

Of all the countries in the world, and disregarding economic factors for a moment, which country could independently produce disposable lighters, from raw materials to the final product, without relying on any foreign country?

This problem seems simple at first glance, but the underlying issues are very complex. We can continue the discussion once our friends truly understand these issues.

100% Agree with you, I also believe the same.

My point with @Rational Philosopher in this discussion centers on the belief that Pakistan lacks the funds, technical capability, and industrial ecosystem required for major projects. I view these as obstacles rather than limiting factors. For instance, if we lack a specific industrial system, we can bridge that gap through strategic partnerships, such as with China. While I am not against developing our own systems, I don't believe they are a strict prerequisite; we can move in parallel—building the capability while simultaneously executing the project.

I hate the mindset that because we currently lack resources, so we are incapable of action and should therefore do nothing.
 
If we discuss within the established framework of the JF-17 fighter jet project, namely "lightweight" and "cost-effective," then we can delve into more detailed discussions.

However, if we
Of all the countries in the world, and disregarding economic factors for a moment, which country could independently produce disposable lighters, from raw materials to the final product, without relying on any foreign country?
China could independently produce disposable lighters from raw materials to the final product without relying on any foreign country. It has domestic access to all necessary resources, including hydrocarbons for plastics and butane fuel, iron ore for steel components, copper and zinc for brass parts, magnesium, and rare earth elements (such as cerium and lanthanum) for the ferrocerium flint alloy.
 

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