JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Ak01]

The Nigerians got Block 3s?

3 unit

 

[hussain0216]

3 unit

But in the Block category it says 3, which I would assume to mean block 3

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

The Nigerians got Block 3s?

No, they only purchased 3.

There was one Block-3 produced in 2019 with the serial number 3000 that I assume joined PAF later on.

I've also corrected the block number for 2017.

 

[TopGun786]

But in the Block category it says 3, which I would assume to mean block 3

Nigerian jets are of "Block 2" variety.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

But in the Block category it says 3, which I would assume to mean block 3

I've added the following text in small print at the bottom of the table:

• It is assumed that the first two Block-3 prototypes (3000 and 3001) were produced in 2019 and 2021 respectively, and they were later inducted into the PAF.

 

[Dreamer]

@Aziqbal

Annual Production of JF-17 Thunders

Year​	Produced​	Block​	Air Force​
2007​	05​	1​	PAF​
2008​	03​	1​	PAF​
2009​	04​	1​	PAF​
2010​	16​	1​	PAF​
2011​	08​	1​	PAF​
2012​	06​	1​	PAF​
2013​	08​	1​	PAF​
2014​	-​	-​	PAF​
2015​	11​	2​	PAF​
2016​	16​	2​	PAF​
2017​	25​	2​	PAF (17) MAF (8)​
2018​	06​	2​	PAF​
2019​	18​	2 & 3​	PAF (15) NAF (03)​
2020​	14*​	2​	PAF​
2021​	01​	3​	PAF​
2022​	15*​	3​	PAF​
2023​	06*​	3​	PAF​
Total​	162​	-​	-​

• * Where figures are "assumed", this is due to missing or incomplete serial numbers, yearly numbers could change.
• It is assumed that the first two Block-3 prototypes (3000 and 3001) were produced in 2019 and 2021 respectively, and they were later inducted into the PAF.

Please point out any anomalies in the data if you come across any.

A few anomalies.

I assume you are suggesting only 1 block 3 each in 2019 and 2021. (You are also assuming these were the prototypes 3000&3001 but disregarding that for the moment.)

Then you are counting 15 in 2022 and 6 in 2023 . So total is 15 +6+1+1=23. So total block 3 is 23 so far.

But also you have said in previous posts that block wise count before block 3 is 50(blk1a)+62(blk2a)+26(blk2B). Adding 23 block 3's gives 50+62+26+23=161. But Your total is 162.

Block2A +2B should be 62+26=88. But your total of Block 2's form 2015-2020 is 90 , if 1 in 2019 is blk 3, that's still 89 block-2's A&B rather than 88.

Leads to question, why is figure 14 in 2020 labeled with a * ? What's not confirmed here? Can this be less than 14 or more?

@Aziqbal says serial 324 has also been seen. You don't agree?

Unrelated question but why did MAF only get 8 planes? Didn't they order 16? And being block-2's how come that order wasn't completed? BTW where did you get the figure 8 from?

 

[RafaleSlayer]

The Nigerians got Block 3s?

Nigeria bought Block 2, Block 3 was not even finalized at that time.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

A few anomalies.

I assume you are suggesting only 1 block 3 each in 2019 and 2021. (You are also assuming these were the prototypes 3000&3001 but disregarding that for the moment.)

Then you are counting 15 in 2022 and 6 in 2023 . So total is 15 +6+1+1=23. So total block 3 is 23 so far.

Thanks for checking the numbers.

The number 23 for Block-3 comes from 23-323.

I am only counting those that I have a serial number for as opposed to how many have been ordered. So, as it stands it's 23 aircrafts so far.

But also you have said in previous posts that block wise count before block 3 is 50(blk1a)+62(blk2a)+26(blk2B). Adding 23 block 3's gives 50+62+26+23=161. But Your total is 162.

Let me see if I got this right brother.
Block-1A PAF = 50
Block-2A PAF = 59
Block-2B PAF = 26

That's 135 Block 1 & 2 with PAF only.
Block-3A PAF = 23

So, 135 + 23 = 158 with PAF only.

Block-2A NAF = 3
Block-2A MAF = 6
Block-2B MAF = 2

That's 11 with Nigeria and Myanmar.

158 (PAF) + 11 (NAF/MAF) = 169

Would you agree with the total of 169 have been produced and inducted with 3 air forces?

Block2A +2B should be 62+26=88. But your total of Block 2's form 2015-2020 is 90 , if 1 in 2019 is blk 3, that's still 89 block-2's A&B rather than 88.

Block-2
PAF 59 (A) + 26 (B) = 85
MAF 6 (A) + 2 (B) = 8
NAF 3 (A) = 3

Block-2 Total: 85 + 8 + 3 = 96

Three Blocks
Block-1 = 50
Block-2 = 96
Block-3 = 23

Overall Total: 50 + 96 + 23 = 169

Leads to question, why is figure 14 in 2020 labeled with a * ? What's not confirmed here? Can this be less than 14 or more?

I'll make a new table at lunch time with all the serial numbers and hopefully you can help with identification and/or point out any anamolies.

@Aziqbal says serial 324 has also been seen. You don't agree?

I've asked for a picture.
I normally need a visual confirmation for my own sanity (there are exceptions though in extreme situations).

Unrelated question but why did MAF only get 8 planes? Didn't they order 16? And being block-2's how come that order wasn't completed? BTW where did you get the figure 8 from?

Only 4 Block -2A have been publicly spotted and 1 Block-2B. There are strong claims that instead of 5 there are 8 with MAF.

MAF Serial numbers visually confirmed:
Block -2A: 17-01, 17-02, 17-03, 17-04
Block-2B: 17-07

It is assumed that because we have 17-07, there's a big chance that 17-08 also exists? MAF JF-17 Thunders are an exception.

 

[Dreamer]

Thanks for checking the numbers.

The number 23 for Block-3 comes from 23-323.

I am only counting those that I have a serial number for as opposed to how many have been ordered. So, as it stands it's 23 aircrafts so far.

Let me see if I got this right brother.
Block-1A PAF = 50
Block-2A PAF = 59
Block-2B PAF = 26

That's 135 Block 1 & 2 with PAF only.
Block-3A PAF = 23

So, 135 + 23 = 158 with PAF only.

Block-2A NAF = 3
Block-2A MAF = 6
Block-2B MAF = 2

That's 11 with Nigeria and Myanmar.

158 (PAF) + 11 (NAF/MAF) = 169

Would you agree with the total of 169 have been produced and inducted with 3 air forces?


Block-2
PAF 59 (A) + 26 (B) = 85
MAF 6 (A) + 2 (B) = 8
NAF 3 (A) = 3

Block-2 Total: 85 + 8 + 3 = 96

Three Blocks
Block-1 = 50
Block-2 = 96
Block-3 = 23

Overall Total: 50 + 96 + 23 = 169


I'll make a new table at lunch time with all the serial numbers and hopefully you can help with identification and/or point out any anamolies.


I've asked for a picture.
I normally need a visual confirmation for my own sanity (there are exceptions though in extreme situations).

Only 4 Block -2A have been publicly spotted and 1 Block-2B. There are strong claims that instead of 5 there are 8 with MAF.

MAF Serial numbers visually confirmed:
Block -2A: 17-01, 17-02, 17-03, 17-04
Block-2B: 17-07

It is assumed that because we have 17-07, there's a big chance that 17-08 also exists? MAF JF-17 Thunders are an exception.

Total production in your table was 162, (which i think should've been 161 ) and now you are saying 169. I guess the difference is the 7-8 myanmar jets.

PAF serial numbers are different than PAC production serial numbers. There was some information about this on the old forum. So you shouldn't mix the two, other wise your totals would be incorrect. I think Myanmar jets under production were labelled as 'Ruby' along with some number..?

 

[m52k85]

Total production in your table was 162, (which i think should've been 161 ) and now you are saying 169. I guess the difference is the 7-8 myanmar jets.

PAF serial numbers are different than PAC production serial numbers. There was some information about this on the old forum. So you shouldn't mix the two, other wise your totals would be incorrect. I think Myanmar jets under production were labelled as 'Ruby' along with some number..?

Yes I recall the same from the pevious forum. There were some Ruby labels at the production stage in Kamra as opposed to the usual 2P-XX and 3P-XX.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Well it's going to take a little longer than just my lunch hour. Managed to complete list of the 6 prototypes and Block-1. I'll start work on Block-2 next.

Any anamolies and corrections spot in the table will be most welcome.

Aircraft No.​	Number by Block​	Block​	Serial Number​	Year​
001​	01​	Prototype​	PT-01​	2003​
002​	02​	Prototype​	PT-02​	2003​
003​	03​	Prototype​	PT-03​	2004​
004​	04​	Prototype​	PT-04​	2006​
005​	05​	Prototype​	PT-05​	2006​
006​	06​	Prototype​	PT-06​	2006​
007​	01​	A​	07-101​	2007​
008​	02​	A​	07-102​	2007​
009​	03​	A​	07-103​	2007​
010​	04​	A​	07-104​	2007​
011​	05​	A​	07-105​	2007​
012​	06​	A​	08-106​	2008​
013​	07​	A​	08-107​	2008​
014​	08​	A​	08-108​	2008​
015​	09​	A​	09-109​	2009​
016​	10​	A​	09-110​	2009​
017​	11​	A​	09-111​	2009​
018​	12​	A​	09-112​	2009​
019​	13​	A​	10-113​	2010​
020​	14​	A​	10-114​	2010​
021​	15​	A​	10-115​	2010​
022​	16​	A​	10-116​	2010​
023​	17​	A​	10-117​	2010​
024​	18​	A​	10-118​	2010​
025​	19​	A​	10-119​	2010​
026​	20​	A​	10-120​	2010​
027​	21​	A​	10-121​	2010​
028​	22​	A​	10-122​	2010​
029​	23​	A​	10-123​	2010​
030​	24​	A​	10-124​	2010​
031​	25​	A​	10-125​	2010​
032​	26​	A​	10-126​	2010​
033​	27​	A​	10-127​	2010​
034​	28​	A​	10-128​	2010​
035​	29​	A​	11-129​	2011​
036​	30​	A​	11-130​	2011​
037​	31​	A​	11-131​	2011​
038​	32​	A​	11-132​	2011​
039​	33​	A​	11-133​	2011​
040​	34​	A​	11-134​	2011​
041​	35​	A​	11-135​	2011​
042​	36​	A​	11-136​	2011​
043​	37​	A​	12-137​	2012​
044​	38​	A​	12-138​	2012​
045​	39​	A​	12-139​	2012​
046​	40​	A​	12-140​	2012​
047​	41​	A​	12-141​	2012​
048​	42​	A​	12-142​	2012​
049​	43​	A​	13-143​	2013​
050​	44​	A​	13-144​	2013​
051​	45​	A​	13-145​	2013​
052​	46​	A​	13-146​	2013​
053​	47​	A​	13-147​	2013​
054​	48​	A​	13-148​	2013​
055​	49​	A​	13-149​	2013​
056​	50​	A​	13-150​	2013​

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Complete list of all JF-17 Thunders

Aircraft No.​	Number by Block​	Block​	Serial Number​	Year​
001​	01​	Prototype​	PT-01​	2003​
002​	02​	Prototype​	PT-02​	2003​
003​	03​	Prototype​	PT-03​	2004​
004​	04​	Prototype​	PT-04​	2006​
005​	05​	Prototype​	PT-05​	2006​
006​	06​	Prototype​	PT-06​	2006​
007​	01​	1A​	07-101​	2007​
008​	02​	1A​	07-102​	2007​
009​	03​	1A​	07-103​	2007​
010​	04​	1A​	07-104​	2007​
011​	05​	1A​	07-105​	2007​
012​	06​	1A​	08-106​	2008​
013​	07​	1A​	08-107​	2008​
014​	08​	1A​	08-108​	2008​
015​	09​	1A​	09-109​	2009​
016​	10​	1A​	09-110​	2009​
017​	11​	1A​	09-111​	2009​
018​	12​	1A​	09-112​	2009​
019​	13​	1A​	10-113​	2010​
020​	14​	1A​	10-114​	2010​
021​	15​	1A​	10-115​	2010​
022​	16​	1A​	10-116​	2010​
023​	17​	1A​	10-117​	2010​
024​	18​	1A​	10-118​	2010​
025​	19​	1A​	10-119​	2010​
026​	20​	1A​	10-120​	2010​
027​	21​	1A​	10-121​	2010​
028​	22​	1A​	10-122​	2010​
029​	23​	1A​	10-123​	2010​
030​	24​	1A​	10-124​	2010​
031​	25​	1A​	10-125​	2010​
032​	26​	1A​	10-126​	2010​
033​	27​	1A​	10-127​	2010​
034​	28​	1A​	10-128​	2010​
035​	29​	1A​	11-129​	2011​
036​	30​	1A​	11-130​	2011​
037​	31​	1A​	11-131​	2011​
038​	32​	1A​	11-132​	2011​
039​	33​	1A​	11-133​	2011​
040​	34​	1A​	11-134​	2011​
041​	35​	1A​	11-135​	2011​
042​	36​	1A​	11-136​	2011​
043​	37​	1A​	12-137​	2012​
044​	38​	1A​	12-138​	2012​
045​	39​	1A​	12-139​	2012​
046​	40​	1A​	12-140​	2012​
047​	41​	1A​	12-141​	2012​
048​	42​	1A​	12-142​	2012​
049​	43​	1A​	13-143​	2013​
050​	44​	1A​	13-144​	2013​
051​	45​	1A​	13-145​	2013​
052​	46​	1A​	13-146​	2013​
053​	47​	1A​	13-147​	2013​
054​	48​	1A​	13-148​	2013​
055​	49​	1A​	13-149​	2013​
056​	50​	1A​	13-150​	2013​
057​	01​	2A​	15-201​	2015​
058​	02​	2A​	15-202​	2015​
059​	03​	2A​	15-203​	2015​
060​	04​	2A​	15-204​	2015​
061​	05​	2A​	15-205​	2015​
062​	06​	2A​	15-207​	2015​
063​	07​	2A​	15-209​	2015​
064​	08​	2A​	15-211​	2015​
065​	09​	2A​	15-212​	2015​
066​	10​	2A​	15-213​	2015​
067​	11​	2A​	15-216​	2015​
068​	12​	2A​	16-206​	2016​
069​	13​	2A​	16-208​	2016​
070​	14​	2A​	16-210​	2016​
071​	15​	2A​	16-214​	2016​
072​	16​	2A​	16-215​	2016​
073​	17​	2A​	16-217​	2016​
074​	18​	2A​	16-218​	2016​
075​	19​	2A​	16-219​	2016​
076​	20​	2A​	16-220​	2016​
077​	21​	2A​	16-221​	2016​
078​	22​	2A​	16-222​	2016​
079​	23​	2A​	16-223​	2016​
080​	24​	2A​	16-224​	2016​
081​	25​	2A​	16-225​	]2016​
082​	26​	2A​	16-226​	2016​
083​	27​	2A​	16-227​	2016​
084​	28​	2A​	16-228​	2016​
085​	29​	2A​	16-229​	2016​
086​	30​	2A​	16-230​	2016​
087​	31​	2A​	16-231​	2016​
088​	32​	2A​	16-232​	2016​
089​	33​	2A​	16-233​	2016​
090​	34​	2A​	16-235​	2016​
091​	35​	2A​	17-234​	2017​
092​	36​	2A​	17-236​	2017​
093​	37​	2A​	17-237​	2017​
094​	38​	2A​	17-238​	2017​
095​	39​	2A​	17-239​	2017​
096​	40​	2A​	17-240​	2017​
097​	41​	2A​	17-241​	2017​
098​	42​	2A​	17-242​	2017​
099​	43​	2A​	17-243​	2017​
100​	44​	2A​	17-244​	2017​
101​	45​	2A​	17-245​	2017​
102​	46​	2A​	17-246​	2017​
103​	47​	2A​	17-247​	2017​
104​	48​	2A​	17-248​	2017​
105​	49​	2A​	??-249​	2017​
106​	50​	2A​	??-250​	2017​
107​	51​	2B​	17-601​	2017​
108​	52​	2A​	17-01​	2017​
109​	53​	2A​	17-02​	2017​
110​	54​	2A​	17-03​	2017​
111​	55​	2A​	17-04​	2017​
112​	56​	2?​	??-??​	2017​
113​	57​	2?​	??-??​	2017​
114​	58​	2B​	17-07​	2017​
115​	59​	2?​	??-??​	2017​
116​	60​	2A​	18-251​	2018​
117​	61​	2A​	18-252​	2018​
118​	62​	2A​	18-253​	2018​
119​	63​	2A​	18-254​	]2018​
120​	64​	2A​	18-255​	2018​
121​	65​	2A​	18-256​	2018​
122​	66​	2A​	19-257​	2019​
123​	67​	2A​	19-258​	2019​
124​	68​	2A​	19-259​	2019​
125​	69​	2A​	NAF-720​	2019​
126​	70​	2A​	NAF-720​	2019​
127​	71​	2A​	NAF-720​	2019​
128​	72​	2B​	19-602​	2019​
129​	73​	2B​	19-603​	2019​
130​	74​	2B​	19-604​	2019​
131​	75​	2B​	19-605​	2019​
132​	76​	2B​	19-606​	2019​
133​	77​	2B​	19-607​	2019​
134​	78​	2B​	19-608​	2019​
135​	79​	2B​	19-609​	2019​
136​	80​	2B​	19-610​	2019​
137​	81​	2B​	19-611​	2019​
138​	82​	2B​	19-612​	2019​
139​	01​	3A​	??-301​	2019​
140​	83​	2B​	20-613​	2020​
141​	84​	2B​	20-614​	2020​
142​	85​	2B​	20-615​	2020​
143​	86​	2B​	20-616​	2020​
144​	87​	2B​	??-617​	2020​
145​	88​	2B​	??-618​	2020​
146​	89​	2B​	??-619​	2020​
147​	90​	2B​	??-620​	2020​
148​	91​	2B​	??-621​	2020​
149​	92​	2B​	20-622​	2020​
150​	93​	2B​	??-623​	2020​
151​	94​	2B​	??-624​	2020​
152​	95​	2B​	??-625​	2020​
153​	96​	2B​	20-626​	2020​
154​	02​	3A​	??-302​	2021​
155​	03​	3A​	??-303​	2022​
156​	04​	3A​	??-304​	2022​
157​	05​	3A​	22-305​	2022​
158​	06​	3A​	22-306​	2022​
159​	07​	3A​	22-307​	2022​
160​	08​	3A​	22-308​	2022​
161​	09​	3A​	22-309​	2022​
162​	10​	3A​	??-310​	2022​
163​	11​	3A​	22-311​	2022​
164​	12​	3A​	22-312​	2022​
165​	13​	3A​	22-313​	2022​
166​	14​	3A​	22-314​	2022​
167​	15​	3A​	??-315​	2022​
168​	16​	3A​	??-316​	2022​
169​	17​	3A​	22-317​	2022​
170​	18​	3A​	23-318​	2023​
171​	19​	3A​	23-319​	2023​
172​	20​	3A​	23-320​	2023​
173​	21​	3A​	??-321​	2023​
174​	22​	3A​	??-322​	2023​
175​	23​	3A​	23-323​	2023​

Notes:

• 4 rows that have a strike line through them, these contain the serial numbers for crashed aircraft.
• Where double question mark are showing instead of numbers, these serial numbers have not been spotted publicly yet, therefore, their year is assumed.

If you spot any errors/anamolies in the data, please point these out.

 

[Michael]

China has two different engines that can power the JF17 ( WS-13/WS-21 and potentially the WS-19 when it matures ).

The AECC does not permit the export of the WS-19 engine.

The WS-21 can be exported. The JF-17 can use the WS-21 engine in the future. Since the FC-31 also uses the WS-21 engine, this will provide the PAF with significant maintenance advantages.

If Pakistan's basic industrial capabilities improve, it could consider directly introducing the WS-21 engine production line to produce WS-21 engines locally. (This would require Pakistan to have sufficient industrial capabilities and the investment for the WS-21 engine production line.)

There is a line in China. Pakistan doesn't have 100% manufacturing capacity.

I could be wrong, but I think China now only manufacturers parts for the JF17 and the only line is in Pakistan

CAC does not have a production line for the JF-17.

1. CAC's component manufacturing plant possesses some production molds for structural components of the JF-17 airframe. These molds will eventually be transferred to PAC.

2. CAC's prototype factory is indeed capable of independently manufacturing any version of the JF-17. However, it is solely used for experimental manufacturing and does not engage in mass production. ------ The prototype factory employs manual production and assembly methods, typically used for experimental manufacturing of new aircraft models, major upgrade variants, etc. Production costs are several times higher than those of mass production lines.

===========================
If PAC wants to increase the production capacity of the JF-17, it needs to stabilize its development strategy first.

Should it continue to invest and expand the JF-17B3 production line? Or should it switch to investing in the elusive PFX?

If PAC chooses to expand the JF-17B3 production line, it may consider asking CAC for assistance in upgrading the existing production line to a smart factory level. Such a factory could increase the production capacity of the JF-17B3 to around 80-100 units per year.
Opening a second production line similar to the current traditional one would be more cost-effective, but it would have no subsequent value.

 

[m52k85]

The AECC does not permit the export of the WS-19 engine.

The WS-21 can be exported. The JF-17 can use the WS-21 engine in the future. Since the FC-31 also uses the WS-21 engine, this will provide the PAF with significant maintenance advantages.

If Pakistan's basic industrial capabilities improve, it could consider directly introducing the WS-21 engine production line to produce WS-21 engines locally. (This would require Pakistan to have sufficient industrial capabilities and the investment for the WS-21 engine production line.)



CAC does not have a production line for the JF-17.

1. CAC's component manufacturing plant possesses some production molds for structural components of the JF-17 airframe. These molds will eventually be transferred to PAC.

2. CAC's prototype factory is indeed capable of independently manufacturing any version of the JF-17. However, it is solely used for experimental manufacturing and does not engage in mass production. ------ The prototype factory employs manual production and assembly methods, typically used for experimental manufacturing of new aircraft models, major upgrade variants, etc. Production costs are several times higher than those of mass production lines.

===========================
If PAC wants to increase the production capacity of the JF-17, it needs to stabilize its development strategy first.

Should it continue to invest and expand the JF-17B3 production line? Or should it switch to investing in the elusive PFX?

If PAC chooses to expand the JF-17B3 production line, it may consider asking CAC for assistance in upgrading the existing production line to a smart factory level. Such a factory could increase the production capacity of the JF-17B3 to around 80-100 units per year.
Opening a second production line similar to the current traditional one would be more cost-effective, but it would have no subsequent value.

WS-19 allows for suprecruise, while WS-21 doesn't, that is what I have understood. Furthermore, we can infer from this piece of information WS-21 is higher bypass and consequently probably more fuel efficient. It might suit Pakistan better to have greater on-station time than high end long distance intercept capability.

 

[Michael]

WS-19 allows for suprecruise, while WS-21 doesn't, that is what I have understood. Furthermore, we can infer from this piece of information WS-21 is higher bypass and consequently probably more fuel efficient. It might suit Pakistan better to have greater on-station time than high end long distance intercept capability.

Your guess is incorrect. Here is what I currently know:

1. The working principle of the WS-21 engine's core unit is consistent with that of the RD-33/RD-93/WS-13. However, the manufacturing process and material technology of the core unit have been comprehensively upgraded. The accessory casing part draws on many technologies from the WS-19.
For Pakistan, the existing RD-93 engine maintenance team can transition directly to maintaining the WS-21 engine after minimal training. Some maintenance platforms can also be directly applied to WS-21 maintenance. This is a very smooth transition.
You can think of the WS-21 engine as the ultimate modified version of the RD-33 series engine. The relationship between them is somewhat similar to that between the Su-27 and the J-16.
RD-33 = Su-27
RD-93 = Su-30
RD-93MA = Su-35
WS-13 = J-11
WS-13E = J-11B
WS-21 = J-16

2. The WS-19 engine is entirely different. Its core engine operating principle incorporates some technologies from the WS-15 engine, as well as entirely new, independently developed technologies. Its accessory casing is also entirely newly developed. Therefore, its development cycle is very long.
The WS-15 engine references some of the core engine operating principles of the CFM56 and AL-31, with the remainder being newly developed.

The current versions of these two engines have similar performance and there is no significant difference between them. However, their technical approaches are completely different.