JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[puttputt]

Sure. Love to. Security guys might make a fucking hue and cry though.

And I know several of them personally and a fair few professionally. And most of them speak in generalities. You will never get more than a basic overview of capabilities and talks about challenges will be in the broadest way. Not aerospace related, but defence related, until 2022, no one knew we had a parallel laser enrichment program. People knew work was being done on lasers but this was never suspected.

Up to a certain point they don't care, unless the guy is still involved as a contractor or something with the PAF. Some end up at places like Kestrel, etc., so yeah, they'll want to keep things cordial, whereas others will unpack more.

Ultimately, the point of all this was to establish we don't owe the Chinese, or Americans, or the Saudis, or whoever, anything. We engage with them, fulfill their interests (commercial, military, political, etc), and they pay us back. Some have paid less than what we're entitled (USA), but it's all a world of dealings and no one sees us more than a pawn. We need to elevate ourselves on our own merits.

 

[gamaji]

This is absurd that some think that 500 BVR was only for defence? How can USA ensure the BVR we are giving when time come we will stop them from using in offence? There is no restrictions on AMRAAMS even on offence

Bhai, it's all empty claims. No one has seen the terms and conditions set between Pak and US for the use of these missiles. What you are saying makes sense but the reality might be different. I see no authoritative statement here. It's all what they think. Every one is free to have/express his opinion.

I know Pak officials' mentality of agreeing to certain terms and conditions without reality pondering on the fine print and then complaining when caught violating what they had agreed earlier.

I have seen people complaining and accusing America for putting sanctions for using American military weapons against India in 1965. Well, Pak had earlier agreed to use those weapons to stop the spread of communism. Common approach for many Pakistanis is 'jab moqa aie ga, to dekha jai ga'.

 

[Michael]

Is Pakistan producing the aluminum for the JF-17?(perhaps it is for most parts)
Is it producing the MiL-std bus?(perhaps it is or not)
Is it producing each and every nut and bolt and wiring harness to connector pins on the 58%?

I agree that Pakistan needs to work to increase the local production of the JF-17.

But I disagree with your analysis.

In today's globalized industry, such a demand is meaningless for Pakistan today.
China's steel production accounts for 53.9% of global output and its aluminum production accounts for 63%. Yet, we still rely on imports in many areas.
For example, for high-end precision machine tool tool heads, over 90% of China's demand is imported. The lifespan of domestically produced tool heads is less than 20% of that of imported ones. The specialized steel used to manufacture these tool heads is completely monopolized by developed Western countries.
As for modern fighter jets, the United States cannot meet the standards you mentioned. Despite the fierce Sino-US conflict, the F-35 fighter jet still features a significant amount of "Made in China" technology. Of course, some "things" in Chinese fighter jets are not sourced from China.
If Pakistan could achieve 100% local production of a fighter jet, starting with the raw materials, it would have completely surpassed every other country in the world. ------This is not a realistic goal.

We usually think of a reasonable goal as: "Will our ability to make it be limited by a single external force?"
Based on national security strategic thinking, this capability needs to be analyzed and decided together with multiple factors such as the country's industrial capability, military capability, diplomatic capability, political capability, and economic capability.

1. Whether we have the ability or not is different from whether we adopt this approach or not. These are two completely different concepts.
a) The United States possesses many advanced industrial technologies and vast financial resources, but it does not produce them. Many developed European countries are similar.
b) China itself possesses abundant mineral resources, but it restricts mining and reserves these resources, importing them in large quantities from abroad.

2. The practice of deeply developing military technology based on the vast supply of civilian market products is now common in many countries.
a) Despite a strict Western technological blockade, Russia is still able to procure a large number of Western electronic components for its own weapons and equipment.
b) Iran manufactures a large number of suicide UAVs. Most of their core components come from the civilian market.

Regarding the JF-17 project itself, many Pakistani friends have overlooked a very important point. This is a China-Pakistani cooperative project. During this period of cooperation, there is no possibility for Pakistan to completely abandon China, nor is it possible for China to completely abandon Pakistan.

From a practical perspective:
1. From a purely technological and production perspective, China does have the capability to independently produce and sell the JF-17 fighter jet, completely ignoring Pakistan. However, this would expose China to the accusation of "treachery." This would be a costly move. Clearly, China is not so foolish.
2. For China, the JF-17 fighter jet is a relatively outdated fighter. Based on the China-Pakistan contract, CAC must ensure Pakistan's supply of parts for JF-17 production. This would require some of CAC's production resources, including factory buildings, production equipment, and skilled workers. Since Pakistan's JF-17 production capacity is too low, this results in a significant waste of CAC's JF-17 production resources. This represents a "burden" rather than a "benefit." The most effective approach for CAC would be to have PAC produce the complete fuselage rather than retaining this meaningless "burden." ------ It should be noted that CAC's factory is located in a prime location in Chengdu, leaving little room for expansion.

As for how Pakistan will develop after the cooperation ends, that is another question.

 

[LX1111]

rofl... 'narratives' ... the favourite 5G hybrid battleground of the losers in our ranks (and sadly, leading our affairs).

The issue wasn't whether the JF-17 was made in Pakistan or not made in Pakistan.

The issue for some of us was that China didn't do anything special for us. Rather, the Chinese, to their credit of course, signed a contract and fulfilled it. That is it. This wasn't a favour for us, nor was it a favour to them. They honoured a deal, and, as in all commercial endeavours, we thank them for their business and they thank us. Maybe the standards for us have fallen so low that to see a deal honoured is a big deal, sure, but outside of that, the Chinese did their usual thing (be reliable business partners).

We got into the mess of discussing Pakistan's input in the JF-17 because some seem to think the Chinese went out of their way for us and we should be eternally grateful to them for it and if not for them we'd be lost. They didn't. In reality, we are still reliant on them for the JF-17 and they benefit from that relationship. It's not an inherently bad thing, but instead of having a weak mentality about it, maybe we should wise up to the fact that we have perhaps some leverage with a few of their vendors.

There is an old Chinese saying: Brothers should settle accounts clearly.
JF-17 is a special case in the international arms market.
It is difficult for Pakistan to find a country that can design a fighter jet tailor-made for it. And the conditions are very lenient. Pakistan can install Italian radar, Turkish optoelectronic pods, and Russian engines on the JF-17.This is unimaginable in other countries.
The international advanced arms market is dominated by sales, and Pakistan's actions are absolutely unacceptable to other manufacturers.
For example, India still cannot carry the Spice series bombs on the Rafale fighter, and can only buy the expensive AASM series
Of course, this is the only chance for Pakistan and China will not provide such loose conditions again.
In addition, according to rumors, China discovered that Turks appeared on the JF-17 production line in 2022, so China once suspended the export of JF17 parts to Pakistan.

 

[LX1111]

I agree that Pakistan needs to work to increase the local production of the JF-17.

But I disagree with your analysis.

In today's globalized industry, such a demand is meaningless for Pakistan today.
China's steel production accounts for 53.9% of global output and its aluminum production accounts for 63%. Yet, we still rely on imports in many areas.
For example, for high-end precision machine tool tool heads, over 90% of China's demand is imported. The lifespan of domestically produced tool heads is less than 20% of that of imported ones. The specialized steel used to manufacture these tool heads is completely monopolized by developed Western countries.
As for modern fighter jets, the United States cannot meet the standards you mentioned. Despite the fierce Sino-US conflict, the F-35 fighter jet still features a significant amount of "Made in China" technology. Of course, some "things" in Chinese fighter jets are not sourced from China.
If Pakistan could achieve 100% local production of a fighter jet, starting with the raw materials, it would have completely surpassed every other country in the world. ------This is not a realistic goal.

We usually think of a reasonable goal as: "Will our ability to make it be limited by a single external force?"
Based on national security strategic thinking, this capability needs to be analyzed and decided together with multiple factors such as the country's industrial capability, military capability, diplomatic capability, political capability, and economic capability.

1. Whether we have the ability or not is different from whether we adopt this approach or not. These are two completely different concepts.
a) The United States possesses many advanced industrial technologies and vast financial resources, but it does not produce them. Many developed European countries are similar.
b) China itself possesses abundant mineral resources, but it restricts mining and reserves these resources, importing them in large quantities from abroad.

2. The practice of deeply developing military technology based on the vast supply of civilian market products is now common in many countries.
a) Despite a strict Western technological blockade, Russia is still able to procure a large number of Western electronic components for its own weapons and equipment.
b) Iran manufactures a large number of suicide UAVs. Most of their core components come from the civilian market.

Regarding the JF-17 project itself, many Pakistani friends have overlooked a very important point. This is a China-Pakistani cooperative project. During this period of cooperation, there is no possibility for Pakistan to completely abandon China, nor is it possible for China to completely abandon Pakistan.

From a practical perspective:
1. From a purely technological and production perspective, China does have the capability to independently produce and sell the JF-17 fighter jet, completely ignoring Pakistan. However, this would expose China to the accusation of "treachery." This would be a costly move. Clearly, China is not so foolish.
2. For China, the JF-17 fighter jet is a relatively outdated fighter. Based on the China-Pakistan contract, CAC must ensure Pakistan's supply of parts for JF-17 production. This would require some of CAC's production resources, including factory buildings, production equipment, and skilled workers. Since Pakistan's JF-17 production capacity is too low, this results in a significant waste of CAC's JF-17 production resources. This represents a "burden" rather than a "benefit." The most effective approach for CAC would be to have PAC produce the complete fuselage rather than retaining this meaningless "burden." ------ It should be noted that CAC's factory is located in a prime location in Chengdu, leaving little room for expansion.

As for how Pakistan will develop after the cooperation ends, that is another question.

At that time, Myanmar once purchased JF-17 fighter jets from China, which also caused dissatisfaction in Pakistan.

 

[Bilal]

At that time, Myanmar once purchased JF-17 fighter jets from China, which also caused dissatisfaction in Pakistan.

No it didn’t. Front fuselage was built in Pakistan under project Ruby.

 

[Be dazzled]

All said and done. China never compensated fighters with soy beans nor mothballed paid for fleet. They never refused any tech to Pakistan whatever the circumstances were. Yes we are customers but they never acted Yankee or EU and slapped sanctions either. Despite the misgivings and disparities Chinese have been the most reliable defense partners and last ditch fall back option for Pakistani armed forces. I'm not a Chinese fanboy and have stories to tell on how an absent supply chain or corporate greed screwed us up and logistics screwed Am Khalid and type 59s over and again but I would still stick to China unless I'm able to fabricate tech that I can use and sell without third party influence.

It's all business but China is the safer bet out of the two.

 

[puttputt]

All said and done. China never compensated fighters with soy beans nor mothballed paid for fleet. They never refused any tech to Pakistan whatever the circumstances were. Yes we are customers but they never acted Yankee or EU and slapped sanctions either. Despite the misgivings and disparities Chinese have been the most reliable defense partners and last ditch fall back option for Pakistani armed forces. I'm not a Chinese fanboy and have stories to tell on how an absent supply chain or corporate greed screwed us up and logistics screwed Am Khalid and type 59s over and again but I would still stick to China unless I'm able to fabricate tech that I can use and sell without third party influence.

It's all business but China is the safer bet out of the two.

This is the point though. China is a STELLAR business partner compared to the US and, to be honest, much of Europe. The whole world agrees on this, which is a big reason why the Chinese are -- and historically -- the world's production engine.

For me, it's more of an issue with our own mentality as Pakistanis. We hold outsiders with way too much deference when we get a nice thing or two. Rather, we should be stand on our own two feet and think in terms of what we can do to carve our own niche, not attach ourselves to others, be it the US, China, KSA, Iran, Turkey, etc.

 

[SD 10]

All said and done. China never compensated fighters with soy beans nor mothballed paid for fleet. They never refused any tech to Pakistan whatever the circumstances were. Yes we are customers but they never acted Yankee or EU and slapped sanctions either. Despite the misgivings and disparities Chinese have been the most reliable defense partners and last ditch fall back option for Pakistani armed forces. I'm not a Chinese fanboy and have stories to tell on how an absent supply chain or corporate greed screwed us up and logistics screwed Am Khalid and type 59s over and again but I would still stick to China unless I'm able to fabricate tech that I can use and sell without third party influence.

It's all business but China is the safer bet out of the two.

we eaasily forget why we went for Whole ITAR free arms thing! In case of any7 conflict with INDIA we will be sanctioned and those weapons will be of no use!

 

[Ak01]

They never refused any tech to Pakistan whatever the circumstances were.

are you certain of this?

 

[Be dazzled]

are you certain of this?

Stop nitpicking and counter my points.

 

[Ak01]

Stop nitpicking and counter my points.

why are you unwilling to answer lol

 

[Be dazzled]

why are you unwilling to answer lol

It's a typo. Now start.

 

[Ali_Baba]

All said and done. China never compensated fighters with soy beans nor mothballed paid for fleet. They never refused any tech to Pakistan whatever the circumstances were. Yes we are customers but they never acted Yankee or EU and slapped sanctions either. Despite the misgivings and disparities Chinese have been the most reliable defense partners and last ditch fall back option for Pakistani armed forces. I'm not a Chinese fanboy and have stories to tell on how an absent supply chain or corporate greed screwed us up and logistics screwed Am Khalid and type 59s over and again but I would still stick to China unless I'm able to fabricate tech that I can use and sell without third party influence.

It's all business but China is the safer bet out of the two.

Hate to be the fly in the ointment on this, but the original business case for the FC-1 was for both China and Pakistan to purchase large numbers of the platform(almost equal if i recall correctly).

China then pulled out of that commitment due to its own requirement changes and J10CE, but it did mean that the initial business case and economics of the JF17 was unfavorably disturbed towards Pakistan, as Pakistan had to then fully fund the development of the platform, rather than sharing the cost with the PLAAF which was the initial plan. I recall this from "way back then" ... That meant, Pakistan could not purchase as many units as it wanted as it had to spend so much on the development effort itself and why the platform took so much longer to mature as it became dependent on PAF funding.

This is why I personally believe that the PAF "sat out" the initial sales pitches for the FC-31 to "co-develop it" until China fully committed to it, fully funded the development and got the plane ready for export sales, which it has done so. PAF did not want to get caught out on that again.

Agree on everything you say, but the development of the FC1/JF17 was not all smooth politically.

( the internet forgets these things, so I can't pull some of the original references on this anymore unfortunately ... )

 

[Oscar]

I agree that Pakistan needs to work to increase the local production of the JF-17.

But I disagree with your analysis.

In today's globalized industry, such a demand is meaningless for Pakistan today.
China's steel production accounts for 53.9% of global output and its aluminum production accounts for 63%. Yet, we still rely on imports in many areas.
For example, for high-end precision machine tool tool heads, over 90% of China's demand is imported. The lifespan of domestically produced tool heads is less than 20% of that of imported ones. The specialized steel used to manufacture these tool heads is completely monopolized by developed Western countries.
As for modern fighter jets, the United States cannot meet the standards you mentioned. Despite the fierce Sino-US conflict, the F-35 fighter jet still features a significant amount of "Made in China" technology. Of course, some "things" in Chinese fighter jets are not sourced from China.
If Pakistan could achieve 100% local production of a fighter jet, starting with the raw materials, it would have completely surpassed every other country in the world. ------This is not a realistic goal.

We usually think of a reasonable goal as: "Will our ability to make it be limited by a single external force?"
Based on national security strategic thinking, this capability needs to be analyzed and decided together with multiple factors such as the country's industrial capability, military capability, diplomatic capability, political capability, and economic capability.

1. Whether we have the ability or not is different from whether we adopt this approach or not. These are two completely different concepts.
a) The United States possesses many advanced industrial technologies and vast financial resources, but it does not produce them. Many developed European countries are similar.
b) China itself possesses abundant mineral resources, but it restricts mining and reserves these resources, importing them in large quantities from abroad.

2. The practice of deeply developing military technology based on the vast supply of civilian market products is now common in many countries.
a) Despite a strict Western technological blockade, Russia is still able to procure a large number of Western electronic components for its own weapons and equipment.
b) Iran manufactures a large number of suicide UAVs. Most of their core components come from the civilian market.

Regarding the JF-17 project itself, many Pakistani friends have overlooked a very important point. This is a China-Pakistani cooperative project. During this period of cooperation, there is no possibility for Pakistan to completely abandon China, nor is it possible for China to completely abandon Pakistan.

From a practical perspective:
1. From a purely technological and production perspective, China does have the capability to independently produce and sell the JF-17 fighter jet, completely ignoring Pakistan. However, this would expose China to the accusation of "treachery." This would be a costly move. Clearly, China is not so foolish.
2. For China, the JF-17 fighter jet is a relatively outdated fighter. Based on the China-Pakistan contract, CAC must ensure Pakistan's supply of parts for JF-17 production. This would require some of CAC's production resources, including factory buildings, production equipment, and skilled workers. Since Pakistan's JF-17 production capacity is too low, this results in a significant waste of CAC's JF-17 production resources. This represents a "burden" rather than a "benefit." The most effective approach for CAC would be to have PAC produce the complete fuselage rather than retaining this meaningless "burden." ------ It should be noted that CAC's factory is located in a prime location in Chengdu, leaving little room for expansion.

As for how Pakistan will develop after the cooperation ends, that is another question.

Your explanation is correct in the context of whether the Jf-17 needs to be produced completely in Pakistan from a commercial perspective but keep in mind that the original argument is how much Pakistan produces and not the why.

In a way you’re reinforcing my long term point that Pakistan’s approach on R&D is to find the most cost effective way instead of being obsessed with indigenous products.