JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[safriz]

Also Atak-2, just listen to 16:40

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Then why is Pakistan not joining?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The thread seems to have turned into China vs Turkey. There is no need to be "Loyal" to anyone, we have our defence needs and they are dictated by who is fulfilling them, in the fastest possible time, in the least costly way and with no strings attached!!

 

[AeronautIR]

Isnt Link 16 already Talking to Link 17 through translation vis ground stations?

TDL (Tactical Datalink) should share info directly in real time... of course we have found solutions to integrate western tech with Chinese systems but it is via other assets, so indirect communication instead of talking directly.

 

[Michael]

Why Diversification is Critical ?

The diversification or centralization of weapons and military technology procurement depends on the military's objectives and the country's foreign policy. Neither model is inherently better or worse; each has its advantages and disadvantages. Different countries adopt different models at different times based on varying international environments.

• Strategic Independence: Over reliance on one supplier makes Pakistan vulnerable to shifts in foreign policy or supply chain disruptions.

Strategic diplomacy is an art. No country can achieve true strategic independence. We can only say that different countries are influenced to varying degrees by foreign powers when formulating their strategies, but none can completely ignore foreign influence.​

The United States, Russia, and China are currently the countries with greater strategic independence. However, they are still influenced by each other when formulating their own strategies.​

Many other countries need to find a balance within the foreign policies of these major powers to avoid harming their own national interests.​

• Technology Transfer: Working with multiple partners increases chances of coproduction, joint R&D, and indigenous capability building.

Diversified procurement can indeed lead to the transfer of more different types of technology. However, you will only obtain superficial technology and will never acquire core and fundamental technologies.​

Trust is a very strange thing.​

• Diplomatic Balance: Defense cooperation strengthens political ties, ensuring Pakistan isn’t seen as aligned with only one bloc.

When you maintain close relationships with different factions simultaneously, it means that no single faction will truly trust you. And if they don't trust you, why would they provide you with better weapons and technology?​

• Industrial Growth: Partnerships like those with Turkey help Pakistan’s own defense industry mature, creating jobs, expertise, and export potential.

You can absolutely develop your economy and industry by relying on the foundations of other countries. In fact, many countries in the world do just that. For example, Japan, South Korea, and most developed European countries.​

Can you guess why, when the US sneezes, the economies of these countries instantly decline?​

• Operational Flexibility: Access to varied platforms and technologies ensures Pakistan’s armed forces can adapt to different scenarios without being locked into one ecosystem.

Hey man. This is completely inflexible.​

You should conduct an in-depth analysis of the Indo-Pakistani air battle on May 7th, where Indian pilots, flying Europe's most advanced fighter jets, had to rely on visual observation and radio communication to conduct combat.​

======================================================
India procures advanced weapons and technology from all over the world, a standard diversification strategy.
Pakistan primarily procures advanced weapons and technology from China, closely resembling a single-source strategy.
The results are self-evident.


If Pakistan increases its efforts to diversify its procurement, acquiring weapons and military technology from more sources, then China's trust in it will decrease, and it will become more difficult for Pakistan to obtain more advanced weapons from China.
Conversely, if Pakistan strengthens its military cooperation with China, then China's trust in it will increase, and Pakistan will be able to obtain more advanced equipment.
These rules apply to either party.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

TDL (Tactical Datalink) should share info directly in real time... of course we have found solutions to integrate western tech with Chinese systems but it is via other assets, so indirect communication instead of talking directly.

Also that is too slow.. we need high bandwidth long range all weather network coverage for quick update and quick decision. I believe we must also upgrade link 17 to future 6th generation network for high bandwidth fully integrated solution. china may already have done that, we can take their help

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I was going to ask about that, found your post. Here is a bit clearer image.

View attachment 163113

Does that mean we have now more than 23 JF-17C in our inventory?

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... Now that Pakistan has a choice, Pakistan can’t afford to limit itself to a single partner. That’s why cooperation with countries like Turkey, Romania, Brazil, South Africa, and Thailand matters. Each brings unique strengths, technologies, and opportunities for joint development. ...

Again, Pakistan has not "limited" itself to buying most of its military hardware from China by choice.

I just don't know where this thinking has come from that Pakistan maybe no longer open to cooperating with Turkiye, Arabia, South Korea, Europeans or the US?

Did Pakistan not opt to buy helicopters from Turkiye and the US? Has Pakistan not purchased AWACS from Sweden, air refueling aircraft from Ukraine, Mi-35 helicopters from Russia, warships from Turkiye, hovercrafts from the UK and so on?

At this very moment, two of Pakistan's neighbours are run by religious nuts who believe Pakistan should not exist, and they've imposed war on us and that's no joke. Pakistan's defence requirements are immediate and they are being fulfilled mainly by China simply because nobody else can match China's speed of production and delivery.

Pakistan is and has always been open to co-operating with rest of the world and Pakistan is co-operating wherever it sees an opportunity. Rest of the world just needs to make sure their opportunities are speedy and shiny as the ones available from China otherwise they lose out of the Pakistani market.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

I was going to ask about that, found your post. Here is a bit clearer image.

View attachment 163113

Does that read as 24-324?

 

[东风夜放花千树]

The diversification or centralization of weapons and military technology procurement depends on the military's objectives and the country's foreign policy. Neither model is inherently better or worse; each has its advantages and disadvantages. Different countries adopt different models at different times based on varying international environments.

• Strategic Independence: Over reliance on one supplier makes Pakistan vulnerable to shifts in foreign policy or supply chain disruptions.

Strategic diplomacy is an art. No country can achieve true strategic independence. We can only say that different countries are influenced to varying degrees by foreign powers when formulating their strategies, but none can completely ignore foreign influence.​

The United States, Russia, and China are currently the countries with greater strategic independence. However, they are still influenced by each other when formulating their own strategies.​

Many other countries need to find a balance within the foreign policies of these major powers to avoid harming their own national interests.​

• Technology Transfer: Working with multiple partners increases chances of coproduction, joint R&D, and indigenous capability building.

Diversified procurement can indeed lead to the transfer of more different types of technology. However, you will only obtain superficial technology and will never acquire core and fundamental technologies.​

Trust is a very strange thing.​

• Diplomatic Balance: Defense cooperation strengthens political ties, ensuring Pakistan isn’t seen as aligned with only one bloc.

When you maintain close relationships with different factions simultaneously, it means that no single faction will truly trust you. And if they don't trust you, why would they provide you with better weapons and technology?​

• Industrial Growth: Partnerships like those with Turkey help Pakistan’s own defense industry mature, creating jobs, expertise, and export potential.

You can absolutely develop your economy and industry by relying on the foundations of other countries. In fact, many countries in the world do just that. For example, Japan, South Korea, and most developed European countries.​

Can you guess why, when the US sneezes, the economies of these countries instantly decline?​

• Operational Flexibility: Access to varied platforms and technologies ensures Pakistan’s armed forces can adapt to different scenarios without being locked into one ecosystem.

Hey man. This is completely inflexible.​

You should conduct an in-depth analysis of the Indo-Pakistani air battle on May 7th, where Indian pilots, flying Europe's most advanced fighter jets, had to rely on visual observation and radio communication to conduct combat.​

======================================================
India procures advanced weapons and technology from all over the world, a standard diversification strategy.
Pakistan primarily procures advanced weapons and technology from China, closely resembling a single-source strategy.
The results are self-evident.


If Pakistan increases its efforts to diversify its procurement, acquiring weapons and military technology from more sources, then China's trust in it will decrease, and it will become more difficult for Pakistan to obtain more advanced weapons from China.
Conversely, if Pakistan strengthens its military cooperation with China, then China's trust in it will increase, and Pakistan will be able to obtain more advanced equipment.
These rules apply to either party.

That's right. Pakistan is a sovereign country and has the right to decide how to develop; we do not interfere with Pakistan's choices.

In the cooperation between China and Pakistan, China has transferred technology to Pakistan, trained Pakistani talent, and established a military industry. Pakistan can produce some weapons on its own, reducing the funds needed to purchase weapons. Weapons exports can also help economic and defense industry development. There are many successful examples of this.

However, Turkey is a NATO country, so China is more cautious when transferring technology to Pakistan, which to some extent affects China-Pakistan military cooperation.

 

[ARMalik]

I am sorry but it is childish to expect PAF to publically declare the number of JF-17s block 3s in its inventory. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN UNLESS PAF'S WANTS TO !

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Again, Pakistan has not "limited" itself to buying most of its military hardware from China by choice.

I just don't know where this thinking has come from that Pakistan maybe no longer open to cooperating with Turkiye, Arabia, South Korea, Europeans or the US?

Did Pakistan not opt to buy helicopters from Turkiye and the US? Has Pakistan not purchased AWACS from Sweden, air refueling aircraft from Ukraine, Mi-35 helicopters from Russia, warships from Turkiye, hovercrafts from the UK and so on?

At this very moment, two of Pakistan's neighbours are run by religious nuts who believe Pakistan should not exist, and they've imposed war on us and that's no joke. Pakistan's defence requirements are immediate and they are being fulfilled mainly by China simply because nobody else can match China's speed of production and delivery.

Pakistan is and has always been open to co-operating with rest of the world and Pakistan is co-operating wherever it sees an opportunity. Rest of the world just needs to make sure their opportunities are speedy and shiny as the ones available from China otherwise they lose out of the Pakistani market.

You sound like you’re running for office the way you keep changing your stance. Two days ago you said one thing, and now it’s like you’ve forgotten it completely. I don’t mind when you play devil’s advocate, that can make a discussion stronger. But if you’re going to do that, at least stick to a clear argument instead of flip flopping. People respect consistency, not contradictions.

 

[puttputt]

What do you mean? Is Pakistan getting anything from China for free? Or is Pakistan purchasing whatever it needs for itself from China with hard cash?

100% you're like the guys who said, "Someone will just sell it to us" when pressed why we weren't developing nuclear weapons in the 1950s.

The point is that we should NOT be dependent on any of the big powers.

The point is that we SHOULD develop our own industrial base -- ESPECIALLY in defence, which is our largest procurement expense every year -- and do so through the means that offer bilateral or reciprocal technology sharing and co-production.

We should treat the big powers (i.e., China, USA, Russia, etc) with skepticism and work to build ourselves up. The reason why countries like Turkey keep coming up in the convo is that they're a fellow mid-tier power that also wants to grow and build itself. We have a mutual incentives structure for things like technology sharing and co-production. China, on the other hand, wants us to be dependent on them so that it can dictate terms to us.

Had it been up to people like you, we wouldn't have nuclear weapons.

 

[Cipher212]

I was going to ask about that, found your post. Here is a bit clearer image.

View attachment 163113

I am confused, if its for Azerbaijan then why does it have the PAF style serial on it. Did we use these for a while and then transfer?

 

[hasssanali8998]

Did we use these for a while and then transfer?

might be test bed for azeri modifications .

 

[White Privilege]

@Deino


View attachment 158724

this is a 24 build year, PAF last birds were built in 23, might be a testbed for azeri mods actually...

i make out 24-XX4

Eventually Pakistan will have to decide when to 'cut off' the 'Jeff' upgradation, may be, switch to J-10C for ground attack roles also, both systems cannot be economically operated in numbers.