JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The indians came in hot---Paf launched its aircraft---iaf launched missiles strikes---so who decided when and where to shoot only those aircraft that launched missiles at pakistan---.

Who had that much time to communicate with who as to what to do.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

I agree with majority of your post. But due to threat picture change, I think the ratio needs to be brought down to 2:1, with all Mirages and F-7's retired. These have essentially become useless facing 5 regiments of S-400 and dozens batteries of medium tier air defenses soon to crowd Indian borders from 2026 end.

2:1 ratio with a stronger 4.5 gen tier is needed to support 170 standardized JF-17 with PL-15 capability and AESA radars. I know our financials are poor, but this one time cost "bitter pill" needs to be swallowed.

That's primarily an economic constraint, not a willing choice to limit ourselves. Pakistan struggles to keep up with the original ratio so unless you can build a decently healthy economy all these demands are unrealistic to fund in every category.

 

[RajaBaja]

Hi,

All is well thank you---it has been Big Rig sales for a few years now.

Technology is the greatest equalizer of all times---just like the AK47 was in the 60's---70's---80's.

Let's just look at the aesa radar---JF17 BLK3 has an approx 1000 TR modules GAN based aesa radar---otoh---Rafale will never be able to get that high a number of TR modules because limitations of its nose cone design when it gets GAN---.

You know it has been over 20 years when on this / prev forum I stated that there will be NO MERGES---it will be shoot BVR and scoot for your life---now that it has happened in front of our eyes & that has totally totally changed how the air war will be fought next time---.

It is your ew package against the opponent's ew package---it is your battle management system against the enemy battle management system---it is your bvr missile against the opponent's bvr missile when the aircraft are in the similar generation category---.

Airframe would be least of the issue here---.

the 5th gen aircraft are present with their real weapons in an illusionary world where most cannot see beyond the veil---.

So---till the veil is not penetrated successfully---nothing much can be said of what would happen in the 5th gen realm---. Bottomline---technology will still be the differentiating point---.

I agree with majority of your post. Like I said, JF-17 provides a great punch for a very low cost and a great workhorse. No doubt. However, it is a small fighter, with less loadout and power plant is an issue also.

So as we phase out Mirages and F-7's and our threat picture has changed a lot since Iran war, now comes a need for heavier payload and electronics carrying platform for 4.5 gen that will remain in place until 2045-2050 with constant upgrade potential. Something that's not in JF-17. So JF-17 has its own place for being a low cost, high capability workhorse and a tier above it is needed for a proper 4.5 medium combat jet or even heavies if possible.

Big rigs have increased in US - Canada as per my understanding.....is it better than being in car business?

 

[RajaBaja]

That's primarily an economic constraint, not a willing choice to limit ourselves. Pakistan struggles to keep up with the original ratio so unless you can build a decently healthy economy all these demands are unrealistic to fund in every category.

Don't worry. There is no economic constraint to deter India. The items are a one time big cost. We don't have so much extra money as we like. But we will get what's needed.

Our economic size if you remove the black economy is near double the current size. So as we climb towards the $ 650-700 billion economy size in the next 3-4 years, the defense budget will continue to increase and more weapons are coming. For India, we can keep the "4 trillion" country in its place with love.

 

[RajaBaja]

Read above my response to Mastan Sb. No one is saying retire JF-17. We all know the tremendous capability it gives. There are other requirements for another platform like the J-10C we already have. Thanks

 

[Rational Philosopher]

Don't worry. There is no economic constraint to deter India. The items are a one time big cost. We don't have so much extra money as we like. But we will get what's needed.

Our economic size if you remove the black economy is near double the current size. So as we climb towards the $ 650-700 billion economy size in the next 3-4 years, the defense budget will continue to increase and more weapons are coming. For India, we can keep the "4 trillion" country in its place with love.

It's not a one time big cost. You need supporting infrastructure, personnel, equipment, feul, weaponry to support the size of any fighting force. This is a yearly cost.

So economics is definitely a major concern. Whether the economy will really climb to $700 billion in the next 4 years is speculation. We'll see when we get there, and it's not like India's economy will remain stationary, it will also grow possibly allowing them to expand.

So the key point here is you need to maintain a minimum proportional economic size towards India that allows you to have a credible defense posture. The key here is the gap in size.

 

[MastanKhan]

I agree with majority of your post. Like I said, JF-17 provides a great punch for a very low cost and a great workhorse. No doubt. However, it is a small fighter, with less loadout and power plant is an issue also.

So as we phase out Mirages and F-7's and our threat picture has changed a lot since Iran war, now comes a need for heavier payload and electronics carrying platform for 4.5 gen that will remain in place until 2045-2050 with constant upgrade potential. Something that's not in JF-17. So JF-17 has its own place for being a low cost, high capability workhorse and a tier above it is needed for a proper 4.5 medium combat jet or even heavies if possible.

Big rigs have increased in US - Canada as per my understanding.....is it better than being in car business?

Hi,

Just imagine as a sales person---working for freightliner---you get 25/30% commission on 10-20-30-40K profit per unit---. Good sales people make anywhere from 300K---to a million dollars a year +++.---

 

[Desprado123]

Out of topic question. Can anyone tell total fighter jets of Pakistan of today.

 

[Azin]

It's not a one time big cost. You need supporting infrastructure, personnel, equipment, feul, weaponry to support the size of any fighting force. This is a yearly cost.

So economics is definitely a major concern. Whether the economy will really climb to $700 billion in the next 4 years is speculation. We'll see when we get there, and it's not like India's economy will remain stationary, it will also grow possibly allowing them to expand.

So the key point here is you need to maintain a minimum proportional economic size towards India that allows you to have a credible defense posture. The key here is the gap in size.

India is a literal continent sized empire the British made and gifted to Hindus lmao we will always be out numbered 6 to 1.

 

[Ali_Baba]

all block 1 jf 17 converted to block 2.
rose mirages still have life left in them as there was talk of converting some into wild weasel role.
rose mirages and pg being fitted with pl10

The limitation for upgrading the PAF should be lack of money, not the 'desire' to hold onto some 50yr old relic that offers no real military value in modern warfare, and remaining flights hours should not be a decision in modern warfare. Modern wars are so fast now, that you need a plane that you can use at high intensity from the outset and for a sustained period. The Mirage(or F7PGs) simply cannot function in that space anymore. Right now, it would be better to replace those Mirages with the cheaper Block IIs rather than Block IIIs, than carry on with any kind of upgrade for the Mirages. Time to let go of those old relics.

 

[RajaBaja]

Hi,

Just imagine as a sales person---working for freightliner---you get 25/30% commission on 10-20-30-40K profit per unit---. Good sales people make anywhere from 300K---to a million dollars a year +++.---

That's some serious cash . Always wish you good luck towards that million mark

 

[Desprado123]

The limitation for upgrading the PAF should be lack of money, not the 'desire' to hold onto some 50yr old relic that offers no real military value in modern warfare, and remaining flights hours should not be a decision in modern warfare. Modern wars are so fast now, that you need a plane that you can use at high intensity from the outset and for a sustained period. The Mirage(or F7PGs) simply cannot function in that space anymore. Right now, it would be better to replace those Mirages with the cheaper Block IIs rather than Block IIIs, than carry on with any kind of upgrade for the Mirages. Time to let go of those old relics.

Never underestimate old jets. They can be a real darkhorse during war suitation with India and they can accomplish major assignment and help to protect new jets. Btw you have latest estimates of our total figther Jet with latest figure.

I cannot find updated figure.

 

[RajaBaja]

It's not a one time big cost. You need supporting infrastructure, personnel, equipment, feul, weaponry to support the size of any fighting force. This is a yearly cost.

So economics is definitely a major concern. Whether the economy will really climb to $700 billion in the next 4 years is speculation. We'll see when we get there, and it's not like India's economy will remain stationary, it will also grow possibly allowing them to expand.

So the key point here is you need to maintain a minimum proportional economic size towards India that allows you to have a credible defense posture. The key here is the gap in size.

You guys with one or both Indian flags have a serious inferiority complex that's so visible in your post. Globally, after the 5 day fiasco, the steam of "we are a big power" is gone. China, America, UK or France, NOT ONE country sees you beyond a developing country now. The "gas" or "illusion" for a big power is gone. Check out global events.

On Pakistan, don't you worry. We know how to buy, build, train and use new weapon systems. It seems as you have traditional Indian amnesia.......so let me remind you two nations inducted two platforms, 1st: J-10c, the 2nd: Rafale (while a bigger paper power, 4 times larger economy and 3 times larger military). And the first nation slaughtered poor Rafale system so bad that not only we destroyed them, we even have their encrypted communication that was supposed to be "unbreakable"!! Tells you all about how we buy, adopt, train and use new systems.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Never underestimate old jets. They can be a real darkhorse during war suitation with India and they can accomplish major assignment and help to protect new jets. Btw you have latest estimates of our total figther Jet with latest figure.

I cannot find updated figure.

No dude - they have nothing of value. Their serviceability rates due to their old age, offer no value in a high intense war. You will find them become unserviceable very quickly. Mechanical aging of equipment is a serious issue.

As for numbers, look at Wiki. No one will know the real value of the PAF, that would be a "military secret" and, if someone here knows somehow, they would do well to keep their mouths shut ..

 

[Rational Philosopher]

You guys with one or both Indian flags have a serious inferiority complex that's so visible in your post. Globally, after the 5 day fiasco, the steam of "we are a big power" is gone. China, America, UK or France, NOT ONE country sees you beyond a developing country now. The "gas" or "illusion" for a big power is gone. Check out global events.

On Pakistan, don't you worry. We know how to buy, build, train and use new weapon systems. It seems as you have traditional Indian amnesia.......so let me remind you two nations inducted two platforms, 1st: J-10c, the 2nd: Rafale (while a bigger paper power, 4 times larger economy and 3 times larger military). And the first nation slaughtered poor Rafale system so bad that not only we destroyed them, we even have their encrypted communication that was supposed to be "unbreakable"!! Tells you all about how we buy, adopt, train and use new systems.

Calm down buddy don't get your pants in a twist about "Indian flags", I'm not Indian but explained a simple economic fact

The resources available to Pakistan vs available to India have a huge disparity which play a role in force size and defensive or aggressive posture. This isn't even a controversial statement the budgets are free to search up, it's public knowledge