JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

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New RD-93 cleared for sale to PAF

Is there a quality difference between RD-93MA and WS-21? @Michael your take on this question?

Another observation maybe engine was the issue that is why we only produced 23 JF-17C? and was waiting for newer RD-93MA engine to complete 50 block 3? @Oscar @arslank01 @side-winder ? or these new engines maybe for azerbaijan order plus our 50 Jf17C?

 

[Michael]

Is there a quality difference between RD-93MA and WS-21? @Michael your take on this question?

I'm not familiar with the RD-93MA.

I do have some non-public information about the WS-21 engine. However, this information cannot be made public until it's officially announced. You can find the relevant information yourself through public channels. This information may differ slightly from internal data, but the difference is minor and will not affect military enthusiasts' analysis.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I'm not familiar with the RD-93MA.

I do have some non-public information about the WS-21 engine. However, this information cannot be made public until it's officially announced. You can find the relevant information yourself through public channels. This information may differ slightly from internal data, but the difference is minor and will not affect military enthusiasts' analysis.

I know how will you have a complete information of both these engines. what i want to know from you is based on available information of both these engines what are your thoughts? i dont think there is any advantage of RD-93MA over WS-21? then why we waited for RD-93MA? we should have opted way before the WS-21? or is it related to the overhaul and maintenance of the already RD-93 we have from couple of decades? and switching to new WS-21 maybe costly along with maintenance headache? what is your opinion on that?

 

[Ali_Baba]

I know how will you have a complete information of both these engines. what i want to know from you is based on available information of both these engines what are your thoughts? i dont think there is any advantage of RD-93MA over WS-21? then why we waited for RD-93MA? we should have opted way before the WS-21? or is it related to the overhaul and maintenance of the already RD-93 we have from couple of decades? and switching to new WS-21 maybe costly along with maintenance headache? what is your opinion on that?

PAF may have waited for the RD-93MA purely because Pakistan now has a lot of maintenance infrastructure for the RD-93 in place in Pakistan already. Changing to a new engine, brings alot of costs with it, and if the WS-21 is the same/similar to the RD-93MA in performance/capabilities, then the logical choice is stay with what you have already.

The interesting decision will be the J-35AE with whatever engine they select, or are offered/restricted to!.

 

[hasssanali8998]

PAF may have waited for the RD-93MA purely because Pakistan now has a lot of maintenance infrastructure for the RD-93 in place in Pakistan already. Changing to a new engine, brings alot of costs with it, and if the WS-21 is the same/similar to the RD-93MA in performance/capabilities, then the logical choice is stay with what you have already.

The interesting decision will be the J-35AE with whatever engine they select, or are offered/restricted to!.

yes but what about Azerbaijani jf17s , they don't get along with russia .

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

PAF may have waited for the RD-93MA purely because Pakistan now has a lot of maintenance infrastructure for the RD-93 in place in Pakistan already. Changing to a new engine, brings alot of costs with it, and if the WS-21 is the same/similar to the RD-93MA in performance/capabilities, then the logical choice is stay with what you have already.

The interesting decision will be the J-35AE with whatever engine they select, or are offered/restricted to!.

i guess "maintenance infrastructure" is costly and has been established after years of learning maybe. otherwise delaying block 3 cannot be justified due to the eminent threat from india

 

[Yommie]

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That's a good looking jet.

 

[m52k85]

i guess "maintenance infrastructure" is costly and has been established after years of learning maybe. otherwise delaying block 3 cannot be justified due to the eminent threat from india

It will be worth to switch over to the Chinese engine, even if we have to redo some fixed costs that went into setting up the maintenance infrastructure.

China will soon be decades ahead of Russia in engine tech, no point in sticking with the Russians, their delivery pace is always poor compared to chinese hot bun manufacturing lines.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

It will be worth to switch over to the Chinese engine, even if we have to redo some fixed costs that went into setting up the maintenance infrastructure.

China will soon be decades ahead of Russia in engine tech, no point in sticking with the Russians, their delivery pace is always poor compared to chinese hot bun manufacturing lines.

totally agree. we can get fast delivery as well as with china progress we can get engine improvements as well

 

[Ak01]

Is there a quality difference between RD-93MA and WS-21? @Michael your take on this question?

Another observation maybe engine was the issue that is why we only produced 23 JF-17C? and was waiting for newer RD-93MA engine to complete 50 block 3? @Oscar @arslank01 @side-winder ? or these new engines maybe for azerbaijan order plus our 50 Jf17C?

i think people just refuse to accept the fact that pac's interest in jf-17 as it is right now is waining and they need to apply the funds elsewhere.

the order was cut from 50, to 30, to now 23.

there literally is just not enough money and its not enough of an important project to warrant extra funding- the oem's interest is waining too, pac doesnt want any more in its current state imo.

From the last 4/5 years ive said Block 3 is just an interim fix, like Block 2 was for Block 1- to me it just seems like PAC limping along the JF-17 until it gets the variant it actually wants- a JF-17 with greater control over its avionics, mission systems and weapons.

PFX is obviously just the block 4 i envisioned, probably see some Turkish radar or if our own ever gets completed, alongside greater domestic/turk content.

This is where the azeri order is such a HUGE lifeline. Basically, PAF does not need to worry about PAC Kamra for the next 3-5years.

They will dripfeed orders to the Azeri Air Force imo, but even before that, azerbaijan is likely footing the bill for modifications and integrations of other systems to the JF-17, im very confident that whatever modifications AZ will require, will make their way onto PFX/Block 4- so likely avionics and weapons of Block 4/PFX will be rather similar to JF-17AZ, why not, az has spent all the development money, the PAF gets to reap the reward.

Im not usuallly one to give credit to PAC, i think its a pathetic shitshow, but this was a masterstroke lol. Get a fat order, get customer to pay for development of the variant you want under the guise of customising it for their use and boom, you have another iterative lifecycle upgrade, funded by a 3rd party. All the rewards to reap, at none of the expense.

But the lack of movement on an order does worry me- id really want to see airframes being pushed out before AZ also loses interest or another competitor enters the market (FA50/M346/Hurjet!!!!)

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

i think people just refuse to accept the fact that pac's interest in jf-17 as it is right now is waining and they need to apply the funds elsewhere.

the order was cut from 50, to 30, to now 23.

there literally is just not enough money and its not enough of an important project to warrant extra funding- the oem's interest is waining too, pac doesnt want any more in its current state imo.

From the last 4/5 years ive said Block 3 is just an interim fix, like Block 2 was for Block 1- to me it just seems like PAC limping along the JF-17 until it gets the variant it actually wants- a JF-17 with greater control over its avionics, mission systems and weapons.

PFX is obviously just the block 4 i envisioned, probably see some Turkish radar or if our own ever gets completed, alongside greater domestic/turk content.

This is where the azeri order is such a HUGE lifeline. Basically, PAF does not need to worry about PAC Kamra for the next 3-5years.

They will dripfeed orders to the Azeri Air Force imo, but even before that, azerbaijan is likely footing the bill for modifications and integrations of other systems to the JF-17, im very confident that whatever modifications AZ will require, will make their way onto PFX/Block 4- so likely avionics and weapons of Block 4/PFX will be rather similar to JF-17AZ, why not, az has spent all the development money, the PAF gets to reap the reward.

Im not usuallly one to give credit to PAC, i think its a pathetic shitshow, but this was a masterstroke lol. Get a fat order, get customer to pay for development of the variant you want under the guise of customising it for their use and boom, you have another iterative lifecycle upgrade, funded by a 3rd party. All the rewards to reap, at none of the expense.

But the lack of movement on an order does worry me- id really want to see airframes being pushed out before AZ also loses interest or another competitor enters the market (FA50/M346/Hurjet!!!!)

That makes sense. but this new india sindoor 2.0 threat? especially when India inducts its naval version Rafale? we will need more 4.5 gen aircrafts as azeri JF and PFX may take 3-4 years for PAF a jet to induct?

 

[Ak01]

@arslank01 - so while PAF currently does not have the RD-93MA, if these reports are true(still question mark), the engines may be heading into PAF in a few years?

i think this is just cope on congress part to try and stick it to the BJP-nothing to take seriously.

so long as Russia is still in ukraine, then once its out of ukraine, the RD93MA will still stay a pretty low priority project, remember, its a very, very niche use case. The MIG-35 is a dead project, MiG is also dying slowly, its only lifeline is Mig 29 Upgrades.

I dont think Mig 29 operators are willing to spend the extra capital on upgrading the engine when you compare the cost to typical airframe values, its just not worth it. Leaves only the JF-17 project, of which block 1's will retire before they get a new engine, naturally block 2's will also be on the chopping block- effectively, the market is too small and not likely one to foot the development cost or even buy in numbers to make it an economically viable product.

IMO Russia was willing before, particularly as klimov had effectively been sitting idle, their only new products being sold were helicopter engines, their turbojets relied on mig 29 sales and support, which obviously was tailing off as the years went by, with all the juicy contracts going to Saturn.

Also, PAC had retaredly ambitious projections for the JF-17, which i also think contributed to third party vendors footing development costs as in their eyes the markets were decent. 50 Block 3+follow up for PAF, backwards upgrades fleet wide, plus HUGE export agreements were all envisioned by the PAF/PAC, all of which fell flat on its arse lol.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

i think this is just cope on congress part to try and stick it to the BJP-nothing to take seriously.

so long as Russia is still in ukraine, then once its out of ukraine, the RD93MA will still stay a pretty low priority project, remember, its a very, very niche use case. The MIG-35 is a dead project, MiG is also dying slowly, its only lifeline is Mig 29 Upgrades.

I dont think Mig 29 operators are willing to spend the extra capital on upgrading the engine when you compare the cost to typical airframe values, its just not worth it. Leaves only the JF-17 project, of which block 1's will retire before they get a new engine, naturally block 2's will also be on the chopping block- effectively, the market is too small and not likely one to foot the development cost or even buy in numbers to make it an economically viable product.

IMO Russia was willing before, particularly as klimov had effectively been sitting idle, their only new products being sold were helicopter engines, their turbojets relied on mig 29 sales and support, which obviously was tailing off as the years went by, with all the juicy contracts going to Saturn.

Also, PAC had retaredly ambitious projections for the JF-17, which i also think contributed to third party vendors footing development costs as in their eyes the markets were decent. 50 Block 3+follow up for PAF, backwards upgrades fleet wide, plus HUGE export agreements were all envisioned by the PAF/PAC, all of which fell flat on its arse lol.

maybe they are for the azeri JF?

 

[Ak01]

That makes sense. but this new india sindoor 2.0 threat? especially when India inducts its naval version Rafale? we will need more 4.5 gen aircrafts as azeri JF and PFX may take 3-4 years for PAF a jet to induct?

people will probably disagree with me here, but, i dont actually think JF-17B3's can deploy PL-15s.

I think that was purely a PAF propaganda video to create confusion among Indian ranks.

NO kills were attributed to JF-17s, at all, even though they were flying and a part of the battles. Not a single kill.

Same missiles, allegedly a radar capable of deploying said missiles, yet not a single kill... seems sus.

as @Quwa notes, AVIC had ALWAYS pressed PAF to procure a different missile for the JF-17, called the PL-12AE, which would have been a comprehensive modernisation of the SD-10, infact, i even think it carries the same seeker stack as the PL-15.

its a seriously deep upgrade, with the only similarity (i think) shared between the SD-10 is its common airframe. Other than that, its got a 2 way datalink, its also 20kg heavier, and has a range "greater than 120km".

It was also certified for use on the JF-17.

For all intents and purposes, it was Chinas AMRAAM D for the export market, particularly Pakistan.

China was always hesitant to release the PL-15 to Pakistan for JF-17. We did not see it EVER, except until sindoor.

Now people will say this was for the element of surprise, i say bullshit, because if that was the case, the PAF would not have been discussing the PL-15/PL-10 integration onto JF-17B3 ever since the JF-17B3 was conceptualised at like every public gathering.

The PL-15 was meant to be a missile available only with the J-10C and i think that is still the case. I think PAF pulled a USSR and fitted it for show, but never actually deployed them because they cant.

IMO, in the meantime PAF is comfortable, but it just doesnt have the funds anyway to do anything. We will probably see some more J-10s, alongside SOMETHING from the US- im bloody sure of it!! PAF seems to be more shook up on its AD side of things post sindoor, hence the AD shopping spree and turn to Europe for SAM's, as alan also said, J-35 is not on the cards fully yet, rather, being considered (the logical thing to do- cant commit to a product we havent seen fully enter service, teething issues etc.)