JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Ak01]

maybe they are for the azeri JF?

i just dont think it exists. Nothing came of it, it was undergoing thermal chamber tests...5 years ago, then poof.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

people will probably disagree with me here, but, i dont actually think JF-17B3's can deploy PL-15s.

I think that was purely a PAF propaganda video to create confusion among Indian ranks.

NO kills were attributed to JF-17s, at all, even though they were flying and a part of the battles. Not a single kill.

Same missiles, allegedly a radar capable of deploying said missiles, yet not a single kill... seems sus.

as @Quwa notes, AVIC had ALWAYS pressed PAF to procure a different missile for the JF-17, called the PL-12AE, which would have been a comprehensive modernisation of the SD-10, infact, i even think it carries the same seeker stack as the PL-15.

its a seriously deep upgrade, with the only similarity (i think) shared between the SD-10 is its common airframe. Other than that, its got a 2 way datalink, its also 20kg heavier, and has a range "greater than 120km".

It was also certified for use on the JF-17.

For all intents and purposes, it was Chinas AMRAAM D for the export market, particularly Pakistan.

China was always hesitant to release the PL-15 to Pakistan for JF-17. We did not see it EVER, except until sindoor.

Now people will say this was for the element of surprise, i say bullshit, because if that was the case, the PAF would not have been discussing the PL-15/PL-10 integration onto JF-17B3 ever since the JF-17B3 was conceptualised at like every public gathering.

The PL-15 was meant to be a missile available only with the J-10C and i think that is still the case. I think PAF pulled a USSR and fitted it for show, but never actually deployed them because they cant.

IMO, in the meantime PAF is comfortable, but it just doesnt have the funds anyway to do anything. We will probably see some more J-10s, alongside SOMETHING from the US- im bloody sure of it!! PAF seems to be more shook up on its AD side of things post sindoor, hence the AD shopping spree and turn to Europe for SAM's, as alan also said, J-35 is not on the cards fully yet, rather, being considered (the logical thing to do- cant commit to a product we havent seen fully enter service, teething issues etc.)

maybe it can be true but then the question will by why azerbaijan had given such a huge over 4 billion order if JF-17C dont have PL-15? maybe turkish BVR? they say JFC radar has limited range and is an air cooled maybe that limits PL-15 range effectiveness than why induct it if it cannot utilize it to the fullest? my i think JF17C has export version of PL-15 at range upto 150km max? and the J-10CE has longer range PL-15? thats why they couldnt get a single kill because J-10 shoot them first

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

i just dont think it exists. Nothing came of it, it was undergoing thermal chamber tests...5 years ago, then poof.

I think You are right. It's been several years since we've heard any updates on the RD-93MA engine. The last updates surfaced a few months after Operation Swift Retort, and there has been no news since. Does this imply that Azerbaijani JF-17 Block 3 is being produced with the Chinese WS-21 engine?

 

[Ak01]

maybe it can be true but then the question will by why azerbaijan had given such a huge over 4 billion order if JF-17C dont have PL-15?

IF it even is a 4bn order, it likely comprises of significant support, infrastructure upgrade, but also development costs for the modifications they required, particularly turkish equiptment/avionics.

maybe turkish BVR?

probably will at some point carry turkish missiles yea

they say JFC radar has limited range and is an air cooled maybe that limits PL-15 range effectiveness than why induct it if it cannot utilize it to the fullest?

im doubtful, modern aesa's are quite efficient. Also, the kind of targets the JF-17 was up against, flankers, mirages, fulcrums are not exactly LO aircraft, id be very surprised if the JF-17's radar was power limited, especially when it comes to facing hugely reflective targets like the flanker.

Also, it would toss water on this CEC/Sensor, shooter narriative people keep spreading, which was bullshit to begin with.

my i think JF17C has export version of PL-15 at range upto 150km max? and the J-10CE has longer range PL-15? thats why they couldnt get a single kill because J-10 shoot them first

both would be export versions, it would be a real pain in the arse to then have to sustain, maintain, and also store and equip two different variants of the same missile, would also mean integration of two different missiles too. Makes no sense, the PAF could just have one same variant, and deploy it on both A/C, i just think JF-17 doesnt have access to PL-15

 

[Ak01]

I think You are right. It's been several years since we've heard any updates on the RD-93MA engine. The last updates surfaced a few months after Operation Swift Retort, and there has been no news since. Does this imply that Azerbaijani JF-17 Block 3 is being produced with the Chinese WS-21 engine?

Negative, it will be RD-93's, the biggest selling point of JF-17 is "hey mig 29 operators, those upgrades are costly and hard to get, plus russia is busy, scrap your old airframes and come buy my shiny new one, you can use all of your original support infrastructure and personnel, particularly for the engine!"

Commonality with the RD-33 is key here, particularly for export sales

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

im doubtful, modern aesa's are quite efficient. Also, the kind of targets the JF-17 was up against, flankers, mirages, fulcrums are not exactly LO aircraft, id be very surprised if the JF-17's radar was power limited, especially when it comes to facing hugely reflective targets like the flanker.

Your point may be correct, but it’s also possible that the J-10CE’s radar range advantage prevented the JF-17 Block 3 from getting a lock. By the time the JF-17 could establish a lock, the J-10CE, due to its superior radar, had already locked on and fired.

both would be export versions, it would be a real pain in the arse to then have to sustain, maintain, and also store and equip two different variants of the same missile, would also mean integration of two different missiles too. Makes no sense, the PAF could just have one same variant, and deploy it on both A/C, i just think JF-17 doesnt have access to PL-15

I don't know, but only a technical expert like Assim @JamD could clarify what technology is exposed during missile integration. Otherwise, it doesn’t add up, because the J-10CE was equipped with the PL-15, yet the JF-17 Block 3 hasn’t been given access to integrate it. Also the Chinese can have integrated it themselves with JF-17C?

 

[Ak01]

Your point may be correct, but it’s also possible that the J-10CE’s radar range advantage prevented the JF-17 Block 3 from getting a lock. By the time the JF-17 could establish a lock, the J-10CE, due to its superior radar, had already locked on and fired.

I don't know, but only a technical expert like Assim @JamD could clarify what technology is exposed during missile integration. Otherwise, it doesn’t add up, because the J-10CE was equipped with the PL-15, yet the JF-17 Block 3 hasn’t been given access to integrate it. Also the Chinese can have integrated it themselves with JF-17C?

It’s all just a commercial play.

The Chinese know the forces need increasingly longer sticks.

Why sell us the middle for our own craft when they can sell the missile AND their aircraft. It’s just business. Allowing PL-15 integration onto JF-17 shoots themselves in the foot and takes profits away from China. It also creates a distinction that is greater between jf-17 and j-10, allowing for the Chinese to drive more profitable sales of j-10s by touting pl-15s as a key defining feature like the PAF did with the pl15 hype all these years. Every jet and modern lifts are equipped with aesas, distinguishing the j10 comes from the increasingly capable weapons it carries, a tier china wants to make unavailable for the competition (jf17)

 

[RAMPAGE]

people will probably disagree with me here, but, i dont actually think JF-17B3's can deploy PL-15s.

I think that was purely a PAF propaganda video to create confusion among Indian ranks.

NO kills were attributed to JF-17s, at all, even though they were flying and a part of the battles. Not a single kill.

Same missiles, allegedly a radar capable of deploying said missiles, yet not a single kill... seems sus.

as @Quwa notes, AVIC had ALWAYS pressed PAF to procure a different missile for the JF-17, called the PL-12AE, which would have been a comprehensive modernisation of the SD-10, infact, i even think it carries the same seeker stack as the PL-15.

its a seriously deep upgrade, with the only similarity (i think) shared between the SD-10 is its common airframe. Other than that, its got a 2 way datalink, its also 20kg heavier, and has a range "greater than 120km".

It was also certified for use on the JF-17.

For all intents and purposes, it was Chinas AMRAAM D for the export market, particularly Pakistan.

China was always hesitant to release the PL-15 to Pakistan for JF-17. We did not see it EVER, except until sindoor.

Now people will say this was for the element of surprise, i say bullshit, because if that was the case, the PAF would not have been discussing the PL-15/PL-10 integration onto JF-17B3 ever since the JF-17B3 was conceptualised at like every public gathering.

The PL-15 was meant to be a missile available only with the J-10C and i think that is still the case. I think PAF pulled a USSR and fitted it for show, but never actually deployed them because they cant.

IMO, in the meantime PAF is comfortable, but it just doesnt have the funds anyway to do anything. We will probably see some more J-10s, alongside SOMETHING from the US- im bloody sure of it!! PAF seems to be more shook up on its AD side of things post sindoor, hence the AD shopping spree and turn to Europe for SAM's, as alan also said, J-35 is not on the cards fully yet, rather, being considered (the logical thing to do- cant commit to a product we havent seen fully enter service, teething issues etc.)

What AD shopping spree? Did I miss something?

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

It’s all just a commercial play.

The Chinese know the forces need increasingly longer sticks.

Why sell us the middle for our own craft when they can sell the missile AND their aircraft. It’s just business. Allowing PL-15 integration onto JF-17 shoots themselves in the foot and takes profits away from China. It also creates a distinction that is greater between jf-17 and j-10, allowing for the Chinese to drive more profitable sales of j-10s by touting pl-15s as a key defining feature like the PAF did with the pl15 hype all these years. Every jet and modern lifts are equipped with aesas, distinguishing the j10 comes from the increasingly capable weapons it carries, a tier china wants to make unavailable for the competition (jf17)

I forgot this business angle totally, your statement makes sense. so no technology expose issue.. ye mere technical knowledge kay liye..

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

What AD shopping spree? Did I miss something?

Sahi sawaal tau apnay pucha hai? @arslank01 bhai,
What are we doing in terms of air defense? Are we considering the IRIS-T SLM or the CAMM ER?

Even if we acquire these advanced systems, given our limited budget, we’d likely procure only a small number of missiles and prioritize defending key assets, leaving others vulnerable. Interception missiles, especially imported ones, come with significant costs aur hum bhttt ghareeb hain.. we need indegenous non costly solution

 

[gamaji]

people will probably disagree with me here, but, i dont actually think JF-17B3's can deploy PL-15s.

I think that was purely a PAF propaganda video to create confusion among Indian ranks.

NO kills were attributed to JF-17s, at all, even though they were flying and a part of the battles. Not a single kill.

Same missiles, allegedly a radar capable of deploying said missiles, yet not a single kill... seems sus.

as @Quwa notes, AVIC had ALWAYS pressed PAF to procure a different missile for the JF-17, called the PL-12AE, which would have been a comprehensive modernisation of the SD-10, infact, i even think it carries the same seeker stack as the PL-15.

its a seriously deep upgrade, with the only similarity (i think) shared between the SD-10 is its common airframe. Other than that, its got a 2 way datalink, its also 20kg heavier, and has a range "greater than 120km".

It was also certified for use on the JF-17.

For all intents and purposes, it was Chinas AMRAAM D for the export market, particularly Pakistan.

China was always hesitant to release the PL-15 to Pakistan for JF-17. We did not see it EVER, except until sindoor.

Now people will say this was for the element of surprise, i say bullshit, because if that was the case, the PAF would not have been discussing the PL-15/PL-10 integration onto JF-17B3 ever since the JF-17B3 was conceptualised at like every public gathering.

The PL-15 was meant to be a missile available only with the J-10C and i think that is still the case. I think PAF pulled a USSR and fitted it for show, but never actually deployed them because they cant.

IMO, in the meantime PAF is comfortable, but it just doesnt have the funds anyway to do anything. We will probably see some more J-10s, alongside SOMETHING from the US- im bloody sure of it!! PAF seems to be more shook up on its AD side of things post sindoor, hence the AD shopping spree and turn to Europe for SAM's, as alan also said, J-35 is not on the cards fully yet, rather, being considered (the logical thing to do- cant commit to a product we havent seen fully enter service, teething issues etc.)

How about the reports of Pakistan getting PL-15s, and that too from PLAAF inventory, years before the J-10C made it to Pakistan? Was that a bluff?

 

[JamD]

Your point may be correct, but it’s also possible that the J-10CE’s radar range advantage prevented the JF-17 Block 3 from getting a lock. By the time the JF-17 could establish a lock, the J-10CE, due to its superior radar, had already locked on and fired.

I don't know, but only a technical expert like Assim @JamD could clarify what technology is exposed during missile integration. Otherwise, it doesn’t add up, because the J-10CE was equipped with the PL-15, yet the JF-17 Block 3 hasn’t been given access to integrate it. Also the Chinese can have integrated it themselves with JF-17C?

I think it is precisely what @arslank01 said that this is economics. If I had to speculate the Azeri deal may be a way to add a better-than-SD10 missile through the Turkish connection.

Regarding missile+radar integration, I think this is a pretty tight integration that is likely only done by OEMs. So when I say a Turkish missile I mean a Turkish missile and radar package. A2G weapons, especially like REK, are wwaaay more easier to integrate. REK is primarily only integrated with the mission computer/stores management system but an A2A missile needs to talk to the fire control radar quite intimately. Imagine the data that needs to flow in that situation in essentially real time. This has become truer with the introduction of AESA FCR radars and two-way datalinks.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

I think it is precisely what @arslank01 said that this is economics. If I had to speculate the Azeri deal may be a way to add a better-than-SD10 missile through the Turkish connection.

Regarding missile+radar integration, I think this is a pretty tight integration that is likely only done by OEMs. So when I say a Turkish missile I mean a Turkish missile and radar package. A2G weapons, especially like REK, are wwaaay more easier to integrate. REK is primarily only integrated with the mission computer/stores management system but an A2A missile needs to talk to the fire control radar quite intimately. Imagine the data that needs to flow in that situation in essentially real time. This has become truer with the introduction of AESA FCR radars and two-way datalinks.

this is pure knowledge.. thanks for such a knowledgeable post. this makes clear many of my concepts. what about other air launched missiles beside REK? what if we integrate some longer range air launched cruise missile like kind of smaller kind of F4 missile? will it case be similar to that of BVR or its integration will be like REK?

 

[Michael]

i dont think there is any advantage of RD-93MA over WS-21? then why we waited for RD-93MA? we should have opted way before the WS-21? or is it related to the overhaul and maintenance of the already RD-93 we have from couple of decades? and switching to new WS-21 maybe costly along with maintenance headache? what is your opinion on that?

The WS-21 engine and the RD-93MA engine are like cousins with the same bloodline.

Russia's development path:RD-33......RD-93......RD-93MA​

China's development path: RD-33......WS-13......WS-21​

Yes. They share a common ancestor.
A recently unveiled scale model of the WS-21 engine reveals changes to its internal structure.
Comparing the two engines' performance figures is meaningless. Generally speaking, the two engines' performance figures are comparable. The difference lies in the WS-21's greater technological transfer from next-generation engines (derived from the WS-19/WS-15).

But one thing is certain: the WS-21 engine is significantly more expensive than the RD-93.

The price of the RD-93 engine has been fluctuating due to international factors. Its actual transaction price has fluctuated between $2.5 million and $5 million.
Pakistan previously purchased a WS-21 engine from China. The price is 100 million RMB, or approximately $14-16 million USD. Since this order is for a single engine and its intended purpose is unclear, we cannot estimate the price of the WS-21 engine in a bulk order. However, this would still represent a significant price difference. (The WS-21 engine uses too many expensive specialty materials and next-generation engine technologies, which has caused its manufacturing costs to soar)

Thus, if subsequent versions of the JF-17 adopt the WS-21 engine, the final price of the entire fighter jet would approach that of the J-10CE, making it completely uncompetitive in the market.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

PAF must shutdown JF-17 production of Block III (I think they already have) and move to more J-10CE for immidiate needs. Success of JF-17OCU-> PFX must be only way it survives. @arslank01 is spot on that there is no meaningful production activity of JF-17 (for both local and export orders) since 2023 and we are in the last quarter of 2025. This long gap tells a lot about what's goiing on under the hood.