gamaji
Registered Member
That was a defensive action and not an offensive one. There was a reason that F-16 didn't go into enemy airspace when PAF had to send even Mirages in there.
JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion
- Thread starter ghazi52
- Start date
do you know why PAF sent Mirages?
Because they're the only aircraft in the PAF that carries MITL weapons...
Who was the largest export AMRAAM order in history to be used on? Taliban?
puttputt
Registered Member
Honest question, but I'm genuinely trying to understand exactly what ToT has China given to Pakistan that has made Pakistan independent in that area.
Too many times our top leaders throw out terms like "ToT" only for us to find it out that ToT itself involves us importing other stuff from the OEM country.
In reality, any "ToT" we get, be it from China or the West, will be dependent on critical imports from the source country. China sells us ToT as part of the contracts we negotiate with them; it's not a favour, but a transaction.
I don't understand why we Pakistanis have such a weak mentality of 'owing' others for the stuff we literally pay our scarce dollars for time and time again.
A reasonable voice! Thank god!
gamaji
Registered Member
It's obvious who is taking a dick ride.
Pak should be grateful to be a Chinese ally and not mental slave dickrider of the west.
Pak could have never made its own tanks, planes, radars, etc. if kept dickriding the west as mentally inferior types of you seem to be. Heck, Chinese helped Pak even with nuke tech and material (as Dr. AQ Khan has said in multiple interviews) and missile factories (at Fateh Jhang) when the west was busy putting stranglehold of sanctions on it.
How surprising that getting money (paid for acquiring fighter jets) back in the form of wheat and soybeans is not felt by a person high on a dickride!
Again it's the time to get off the dickride and see the ground realities.
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gamaji
Registered Member
Hint: How Pak got HMC, HIT, and Kamra JF-17 production line?
gamaji
Registered Member
Your nonsense cannot hide the fact that Pak cannot use its F-16 for offensive operations, including against India.
correct, nothing says dickriding like "we should balance our procurement so that we dont end up in a state of over-reliance, after all, we are just a customer, and they, just a supplier"... Some of you are so blind its amazing.
"pak should be grateful for the rope being put around its neck lol"
Pak has made no radars as a result of Chinese help. None whatsoever, ive followed the program with intense scrutiny and know for a fact whats what lol so nice try.
Pak does not make its own planes lol, pakistan ASSEMBLES. The SU30MKI is more Indian than the JF-17 is Pakistani...
Tanks are the only example of Pak doing things properly, even then, HIT was FORCED to localise and adjust after the Chinese left them high and dry with haider.
pretty amazing how selective amneisa works- didnt Pakistan REQUEST soya bean oil lol after a deal that GOP agreed to, deciding X% would be paid in cash, and X in food commodities.
Sure, show me the realities, tell me, how is the JF-17 project going?
What components of the JF-17 are produced in Pakistan?
"i dont like when people tell me realities"
Anyway, thankfully the brass seem to have a similar mindset, not becoming too over reliant on the Chinese, our people evidently tend to get a bit jazbaati over lip service, sweeter than honey, deeper than the valleys blah blah doesnt apply to ground realities, its only useful in winning over the hearts of the common man... evidently.
_NOBODY_
Trusted Member
Your patience in dealing with such ignorant people is most admirable.
Metal 0-1
Registered Member
puttputt
Registered Member
Re-read the question: "exactly what ToT has China given to Pakistan that has made Pakistan independent in that area."
1. The JF-17 ARF at Kamra relies on sub-assemblies from China (for the fuselage) and aluminium imports for the stabilizers we manufacture. So, are we independent in the areas of aircraft manufacturing? No.
2. The al-Khalid and Haider production lines at HIT also rely on imports from China. If and when the costs for those inputs go up or their availability goes down, what happens to the project? Hint. It goes to sh!t. So, are we independent with our MBTs? No.
3. HMC was set up by ZAB after he sh@t on our private industrial base through his God-awful nationalization scheme. But, okay, let's give credit where it's due, China helped with its set up. However, HMC also drew on Western expertise(which we contracted/bought) in later years as well.
The point of all this being: No one gives us ToT as a favour, we ask and pay for what we can get for our requirements. Most of those requirements tend to center on localized MRO and other long-term support goals more so than independent manufacturing. But this is NOT unique to our contracts with China; we seek the same from the West where we could afford it. For ex., we have a domestic support base for the Agosta 90B, the MILGEMs, Saab 2000 and Saab Erieye, the Lineage 1000E (being set up), C-130s, and so on.
"ToT" in of itself means little once we unpack what it means in our context. It isn't about making us independent per se, but to ensure that whatever we buy from abroad is made more affordable to operate in the long-run via localized support.
Until the J-10CEs came, the PAF integrated the F-16s as part of its offensive packages with the Mirage ROSE. This was our offensive package from 2010 until 2023, holding the line and delivering in 2019.
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gamaji
Registered Member
The crap is not even worth a read. Just a few rants from a retard.
The question is not what comprises that 58% of JF-17 that is made in Pakistan. What is baloney! The question is if Pak could have made that much if it kept having a wesytern dickride? I think I am dealing with a brainless idiot.
No one is disputing that Pak, like any other country, should diversify its tach base and military imports. But resorting to a sustained campaign against Chinese technology is malicious to say the least.
The fact that Pak has benefitted so much by acquiring and then working/improving many crucial systems (and I gave you many examples of such systems) that the west would never had sold, shared or allowed to Pak.
If anything, the west would at best keep Pak as a dependent and an Indian stooge country. Pak would never be able to get any system that would 'disturb the power balance' in the region. That in fact means that Pak gets what Indians would approve/allow to be given to Pakistan. That's what perhaps might be your goal or mission!
Tariq Habib Afridi
Registered Member
Some of the issues with west. you can correct me if i am wrong in any of below points.
Germany blocked MTU engines for Hangor-class in 2020-22 due to export controls later Pak requested China-specific variants (e.g., Hangor subs with AIP tweaks).
Yes Pakistan got Mirage III/5 blueprints for ROSE upgrades) and Agosta: Full ToT (3 built in Pakistan) but they were legacy system. Also, UK offered old/retired Tranche 1 Typhoons (free/cheap) in 2010s;
but can they gave us fifth gen? any weapon on par with israel? why germany blocked typhoon for turkey? the west will never compromise on israel and muslims countries will always lack behind a generation from israel in defence? but in china case? we can get the J-35AE? baaki muft main duniya mai koyi b kisi ko koyi chez nahi deta.. turkey and even saudia b humain free main kuch nahi deingay tau china kyun de?
China has significance advancements in defence production both quantity and quality wise. why not get armed to the teeth from china so that we can save our ass from western chaudhry in middle east israel and their previou dog india.
Bhai latest misaal greek aur turkey ki b dekh lo aap.. greek musalsal apni airforce and military might enahce kar raha quality wise. west muslim countries ka kabhi sagga ho hi nahi sakta.. the only exception i have observed is Italy..wo humain dil khol kay madad kar raha..
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