Jinnah Class Frigate | Updates & Discussion

[delta2]

Wrong thread. BTW, nothing wrong in name though. We share a common history for several centuries. Pakistan is home to indus valley civilization.

You know what, the indus river name came first. The words india, hind and utlimately hindustan were all derived from it. Search it and you wil find interesting facts.

So fundamentally We own the word Indus, and whatever word is derived from it like India. So if one knows the history, they'd just feel good about it and won't think it named exclusively on modern day (divided) India. The name indian ocean came long before we separated. This land of ours was called India too. So basically the ocean was named on our joint land. and today we are home to that very indus civilization from which everything began. I consider the name indian ocean more related with our ancient civilization and not so with modern day india.

The Hindustanis are brutally obsessed with the Indus River and the Indus Valley Civilization. They are dying to create an even an artificial link of any of their languages to the Indus Valley script which still has not been deciphered as of yet.

Imagine Tamils going through pains to find a link with with this region in one way or another, goin so far as to even offering a bribe (prize).

 

[Oscar]

Not sure what renaming areas based on cultural and historical aspects has to do with Jinnah class - sometimes best to not post a thought where you are.

 

[Toxic]

IIRC, the Turkish Navy designed the MILGEM and then licensed it out to state-owned and private shipbuilders and designers for them to modify, rework, etc. That's why we see many different variants, both of the core Ada (e.g., Babur-class) and beyond that (e.g., Istif-class, Jinnah-class/AS3400, and the AS3600).

IMO, the NRDI/PDW likely has direct access to both the AS3400 (which underpins the Jinnah-class) and the AS3600. So, we'll likely see an AS3600-based tranche down the line.

The key, IMO, is how soon they adopt long-range SAMs.

I think there is an increasing chance they will rework the Jinnah-class at some point, possibly even as early as the first 2 ships, if the MILDAS VLS can support it, to carry the SIPER or CAMM-ER-v2 (analogous to the CAMM-MR).

Likewise, the Tughril-class FFGs may see an upgrade to the HQ-16FE relatively soon as well.

I really doubt the AS3600, it's a Psudo destroyer in terms of armament will have a price tag that will reflect that.

I could see the JCF evolve to incorporate 32 VLS cells (of what ever type) but not to the level of AS3600.

As HQ-16FE on the Tughrils I thinksit's a matter of When and not If, PN I think recognizes that Tughrils as they are currently are floating reefs, also it's the Easiest way for the PN to get a Area defense frigate without having to spend $600million for one.

Potentially costing as little as $70 mil per hull.

 

[studsmart]

Wrong thread. BTW, nothing wrong in name though. We share a common history for several centuries. Pakistan is home to indus valley civilization.

You know what, the indus river name came first. The words india, hind and utlimately hindustan were all derived from it. Search it and you wil find interesting facts.

So fundamentally We own the word Indus, and whatever word is derived from it like India. So if one knows the history, they'd just feel good about it and won't think it named exclusively on modern day (divided) India. The name indian ocean came long before we separated. This land of ours was called India too. So basically the ocean was named on our joint land. and today we are home to that very indus civilization from which everything began. I consider the name indian ocean more related with our ancient civilization and not so with modern day india.

I used to think that way, but if India is becoming a Hindu state for Hindus and not others, then this is what is coming next. Either they should consider South Asia for Asians, then Sindh becomes Indus, that becomes Hindustan, in parallel it becomes India, and the India Ocean, then it is ok, but that is not the case now and for some time.

 

[studsmart]

Please move renaming of Indian Ocean stuff to another thread, please.

 

[puttputt]

I really doubt the AS3600, it's a Psudo destroyer in terms of armament will have a price tag that will reflect that.

I could see the JCF evolve to incorporate 32 VLS cells (of what ever type) but not to the level of AS3600.

As HQ-16FE on the Tughrils I thinksit's a matter of When and not If, PN I think recognizes that Tughrils as they are currently are floating reefs, also it's the Easiest way for the PN to get a Area defense frigate without having to spend $600million for one.

Potentially costing as little as $70 mil per hull.

Re: AS3600. Yes, the munitions payload would command a higher price tag. But the way I look at it, I don't think the PN is necessarily against building bigger ships as the core ship (i.e., steel, propulsion, etc) does not cost that much more than the standard AS3400 (Jinnah-class).

The question is: how much can the PN afford to arm on top of it? In that context, the AS3600 affords a bit more space for, in my view, a clearer AAW-focused mission (i.e., more, deeper VLS cells and a higher-powered AESA radar). If they keep it focused to the AAW mission, it should be workable. However, I agree, no need to go for an insanely upgunned frigate with tons and tons of AShM for the sake of it.

 

[Princeps]

Likewise, the Tughril-class FFGs may see an upgrade to the HQ-16FE relatively soon as well.

Not happening anytime soon.

This is the same Navy that still hasn't replaced the FM-90N on Zulfiquars with something more modern.

 

[rafale]

I really doubt the AS3600, it's a Psudo destroyer in terms of armament will have a price tag that will reflect that.

I could see the JCF evolve to incorporate 32 VLS cells (of what ever type) but not to the level of AS3600.

As HQ-16FE on the Tughrils I thinksit's a matter of When and not If, PN I think recognizes that Tughrils as they are currently are floating reefs, also it's the Easiest way for the PN to get a Area defense frigate without having to spend $600million for one.

Potentially costing as little as $70 mil per hull.

Could very well be packaged with Land based HQ16FE orders........common missiles, will reduce procurement and further maintenance costs.

Instead of Navy/Airforce/Army having own separate procurements for AD systems, they really need to standardize.

For example, go for CAMM-ER/MR in the medium range along with HQ16FE.

Go with Chinese only for long range HQ9s.

Need common, networked AD across the land and seas.

 

[Toxic]

Re: AS3600. Yes, the munitions payload would command a higher price tag. But the way I look at it, I don't think the PN is necessarily against building bigger ships as the core ship (i.e., steel, propulsion, etc) does not cost that much more than the standard AS3400 (Jinnah-class).

The question is: how much can the PN afford to arm on top of it? In that context, the AS3600 affords a bit more space for, in my view, a clearer AAW-focused mission (i.e., more, deeper VLS cells and a higher-powered AESA radar). If they keep it focused to the AAW mission, it should be workable. However, I agree, no need to go for an insanely upgunned frigate with tons and tons of AShM for the sake of it.

I actually think they might go for a OPV 2600 based class of AAW ships, the OPV hulls are very cheap which means there's way more money left for Sensors and Weapons, for example a OPV 2600 with essentially the Same loadout as a babur costs like half the pricetag (170-200mil range vs 375 mil a babur although part of that might be because of the TOT agreement)

So you could have a ship with 32 VLS cells for potentially less then $250mil.

As for JCF it ultimately depends on the PNs vision for the project which currently seems to the more Safe and cost friendly route.

 

[Toxic]

Not happening anytime soon.

This is the same Navy that still hasn't replaced the FM-90N on Zulfiquars with something more modern.

Not necessarily, upgrading the Tughrils is very easy, HQ-16FEs can use the same VLS cells, you would just need to procure new missiles and upgrade the FCR and that's basically it, as for the Zulfiqar PN is stretched very thin Currently maybe once most of the Hangors are inducted we could see them pursue a MLU for them.

 

[Princeps]

Not necessarily, upgrading the Tughrils is very easy, HQ-16FEs can use the same VLS cells, you would just need to procure new missiles and upgrade the FCR and that's basically it, as for the Zulfiqar PN is stretched very thin Currently maybe once most of the Hangors are inducted we could see them pursue a MLU for them.

You can't just upgrade the FCRs you need to replace them with the new ones, add datalinks and do integration work. Then there's the cost of new missiles and deciding what to do with the old ones.

All of this isn't to say that it isn't feasible but I just don't see PN doing this anytime soon honestly. 10 years down the line sure but not now.

 

[Ak01]

Not happening anytime soon.

This is the same Navy that still hasn't replaced the FM-90N on Zulfiquars with something more modern.

bad comparison.

FM-90 replacement is alot of work relatively. There is systems below the deck etc too.

HQ-16FE is just missile. It uses the same VLS sys so just a software modification most likely

 

[Ak01]

You can't just upgrade the FCRs you need to replace them with the new ones, add datalinks and do integration work. Then there's the cost of new missiles and deciding what to do with the old ones.

All of this isn't to say that it isn't feasible but I just don't see PN doing this anytime soon honestly. 10 years down the line sure but not now.

this isnt as bad as you think. CAMM was originally retrofit to old british vessels. It was designed to be easy to do. You mention datalinks as an example, CAMM uses standalone datalink arrays for example. Its not going to be an super deep upgrade. In theory you'd just take the suite from yarmook or babur and adapt it to the f22p.

 

[Pakistan First]

FM-90 replacement is alot of work relatively. There is systems below the deck etc too.

HQ-16FE is just missile. It uses the same VLS sys so just a software modification most likely

Yep replacing it with VLS is ofcourse a lot of work. But I think he meant replacement of really outdated system with newer but same type / category.

FM-90 is short range / point defense, so its replacement with same type could be HHQ-10 or FL-3000N.

Going VLS route will be very heavy work.

 

[Toxic]

Yep replacing it with VLS is ofcourse a lot of work. But I think he meant replacement of really outdated system with newer but same type / category.

FM-90 is short range / point defense, so its replacement with same type could be HHQ-10 or FL-3000N.

Going VLS route will be very heavy work.

Not really the same category, FM-90s short range has more to do with the fact that it is basically a 1960s system rather then it was designed as a point defense system.