Jinnah Class Frigate | Updates & Discussion

[Yasser76]

IMO this might also be the PN keeping its core focus on submarines and, potentially, other A2/AD-focused strategies. To NHQ, the JCF may have been sought as a no-frills system that is cost-effective and quick to construct.

Moreover, they may be leaning more on the idea that the subsystems stack will advance far enough in the future to even make a 3,000-ton ship relatively impactful.

But at the end of the day, NHQ might not be interested in investing too much in the JCF or surface vessels in general. Their core focus is probably still on getting a world-class submarine.

Agreed, Pak has no desire for sea control, just essentially keeping IN at bay and off ur backs (and supply lines), Subs, MPAs, long rage coastal SAMs, Submarines and cruise missiles are just so much more cost effective doing this then capital ships and it looks like PN is investing heavily in these areas.

In the past we may have needed ships to attack Indias coast from close in, but increases in range and technology of missiles means we essentially just need missile carriers that can be guided externally if need be (by MPA, AEW etc). Frigates carrying Barbur/C-802/SMASH and MPAs with CM400 along with Subs do this just fine

 

[Quwa]

Agreed, Pak has no desire for sea control, just essentially keeping IN at bay and off ur backs (and supply lines), Subs, MPAs, long rage coastal SAMs, Submarines and cruise missiles are just so much more cost effective doing this then capital ships and it looks like PN is investing heavily in these areas.

In the past we may have needed ships to attack Indias coast from close in, but increases in range and technology of missiles means we essentially just need missile carriers that can be guided externally if need be (by MPA, AEW etc). Frigates carrying Barbur/C-802/SMASH and MPAs with CM400 along with Subs do this just fine

Yep. Moreover, these ships are meant to last decades, they'll go through major upgrades down the line. I don't think the JCFs will be limited to 16 VLS cells or even MR-SAMs; IMO, in the long-run, the standard for any 3,000-ton ship will be x32 quad-packed VLS with long-range SAMs. Factor that in with the availability of GaN-based AESA radars, better EW and ECM, and the eventual rise of USV and UUVs as off-board sensor and weapons nodes, I'd think the JCF will do good for what it is.

That said, however, it was pretty interesting seeing Fincantieri market their FCX-30, which is broadly similar in size and displacement to the JCF. I'm starting to think the PN had set a pretty specific requirement for next-gen frigates and the vendors, be it from Turkiye or Italy or Netherlands, are following it closely.

The PN still wants to expand its surface fleet, and perhaps, it may see the ~3,000-ton size as the sweet-spot for packing capability while being economical. Obviously, I think NHQ's next-gen frigate work has gone to ASFAT and NRDI; Fincantieri's focus is probably on the next-gen subsurface work now.

 

[Yasser76]

Yep. Moreover, these ships are meant to last decades, they'll go through major upgrades down the line. I don't think the JCFs will be limited to 16 VLS cells or even MR-SAMs; IMO, in the long-run, the standard for any 3,000-ton ship will be x32 quad-packed VLS with long-range SAMs. Factor that in with the availability of GaN-based AESA radars, better EW and ECM, and the eventual rise of USV and UUVs as off-board sensor and weapons nodes, I'd think the JCF will do good for what it is.

That said, however, it was pretty interesting seeing Fincantieri market their FCX-30, which is broadly similar in size and displacement to the JCF. I'm starting to think the PN had set a pretty specific requirement for next-gen frigates and the vendors, be it from Turkiye or Italy or Netherlands, are following it closely.

The PN still wants to expand its surface fleet, and perhaps, it may see the ~3,000-ton size as the sweet-spot for packing capability while being economical. Obviously, I think NHQ's next-gen frigate work has gone to ASFAT and NRDI; Fincantieri's focus is probably on the next-gen subsurface work now.

Fincantieri is an amazing company and global leader, just unsure wat they can offer is that the Turks cannot in terms of surface fleet (assuming we will always be wanting Friagtes/Corvettes and not FREMM class type destroyers). I think where they can add value is teahcing us about systems integration I guess.

On paper their future U212NFS is the perfect replacment for our Agosta 90Bs and if this a design they have basically already sold into the PN (and hence their R&D agreement with us) then that is a great move by PN, as it can lead to a very very solid fleet of say 8 Hangor and 4 U212NFS type subes (made in Pakistan). Issue here will be the Germans (as usual!) and how much IP Fincantieri has over this design (basically a development of the U2120. Also I suspect even in the U212NFS they will be using German engines

 

[Quwa]

Fincantieri is an amazing company and global leader, just unsure wat they can offer is that the Turks cannot in terms of surface fleet (assuming we will always be wanting Friagtes/Corvettes and not FREMM class type destroyers). I think where they can add value is teahcing us about systems integration I guess.

On paper their future U212NFS is the perfect replacment for our Agosta 90Bs and if this a design they have basically already sold into the PN (and hence their R&D agreement with us) then that is a great move by PN, as it can lead to a very very solid fleet of say 8 Hangor and 4 U212NFS type subes (made in Pakistan). Issue here will be the Germans (as usual!) and how much IP Fincantieri has over this design (basically a development of the U2120. Also I suspect even in the U212NFS they will be using German engines

FWIW... The upcoming Trump Admin might start pushing American investment from Western Europe to Central Europe. This may drive the Germans to be more flexible with their defence exports in the near future (so as to offset some of the losses they may see due to changing US economic priorities).

OTOH...the alternative here would be Fincantieri helping NRDI design an original sub based on other projects, like the S800.

 

[Yasser76]

FWIW... The upcoming Trump Admin might start pushing American investment from Western Europe to Central Europe. This may drive the Germans to be more flexible with their defence exports in the near future (so as to offset some of the losses they may see due to changing US economic priorities).

OTOH...the alternative here would be Fincantieri helping NRDI design an original sub based on other projects, like the S800.

For sure, Trump will push for massive US arms sales and this will have a knock on effect.
He will want to show tangible results and deals so I see Europe, India, Japan and Australia being squeezed to buy American here.

If the Germans see that Typhoon and its U212 miss out on Indian tenders (very likely how in bed with the French India now is with the Scorpene and Rafale) they may show some flexibility for Pakistan.

Right now Pak main weapons suppliers are probably these countries in order of spend

China
Turkey
Italy
Sweden
Netherlands

If you take out high end Chinese kit (that is subsidised and other countries may not be able to offer)

Between those European countries Pakistan does still represent a decent sized market for AEW Aircraft, training aircraft, Frigates, Submarines, radar systems, helicopters (land and sea). US, UK, Germany and France have basically put themselves out of this market for geopoltical and econmic reasons (not wanting to release high end equipment to us and also chasing Indian orders).

Turkey, Italy Sweden and Netherlands have no big ticket items on sale to India (everyone know Gripen will never join IAF) so they have basically cornered the non Chinese arms market in Pakistan.

Sorry went a bit off topic and on a rant here.

 

[Bentley777]

IMO this might also be the PN keeping its core focus on submarines and, potentially, other A2/AD-focused strategies. To NHQ, the JCF may have been sought as a no-frills system that is cost-effective and quick to construct.

Moreover, they may be leaning more on the idea that the subsystems stack will advance far enough in the future to even make a 3,000-ton ship relatively impactful.

But at the end of the day, NHQ might not be interested in investing too much in the JCF or surface vessels in general. Their core focus is probably still on getting a world-class submarine.

Which world class submarine they might be other than hangor and how many in numbers if they are not focusing on surface fleets.

 

[Ak01]

IMO this might also be the PN keeping its core focus on submarines and, potentially, other A2/AD-focused strategies. To NHQ, the JCF may have been sought as a no-frills system that is cost-effective and quick to construct.

Moreover, they may be leaning more on the idea that the subsystems stack will advance far enough in the future to even make a 3,000-ton ship relatively impactful.

But at the end of the day, NHQ might not be interested in investing too much in the JCF or surface vessels in general. Their core focus is probably still on getting a world-class submarine.

one thing people keep forgetting also is that this is ultimately still an ada class with a new superstructure, thus, its still bound by the inherent limitations of the original hull.

one key thing though, the configuration can still change, the original ada class config were shown to have changed many times, until the system is in the hull, or we can see the vls cutouts, theres a chance things can change

 

[mythbuster]

IMO this might also be the PN keeping its core focus on submarines and, potentially, other A2/AD-focused strategies. To NHQ, the JCF may have been sought as a no-frills system that is cost-effective and quick to construct.

Moreover, they may be leaning more on the idea that the subsystems stack will advance far enough in the future to even make a 3,000-ton ship relatively impactful.

But at the end of the day, NHQ might not be interested in investing too much in the JCF or surface vessels in general. Their core focus is probably still on getting a world-class submarine.

It's more than your analysis , this is the path Navy is actually taking ... military as a whole is planning on these lines .

 

[Princeps]

one thing people keep forgetting also is that this is ultimately still an ada class with a new superstructure, thus, its still bound by the inherent limitations of the original hull.

one key thing though, the configuration can still change, the original ada class config were shown to have changed many times, until the system is in the hull, or we can see the vls cutouts, theres a chance things can change

It has more to do with cost than any hull limitations. PN simply cannot afford more than 16 CAMM-ER per ship.

 

[Yasser76]

It has more to do with cost than any hull limitations. PN simply cannot afford more than 16 CAMM-ER per ship.

Its more the ship limitations. PN could easily add few more CAMMs and lose a ship to save money.

Another important fact is we will soon have 6 more ships coming on line and we STILL do not have modern naval helicopters to equip the current fleet, let along another 6 Frigates. This is where cash shortage is hurting us I feel

 

[Ak01]

It has more to do with cost than any hull limitations. PN simply cannot afford more than 16 CAMM-ER per ship.

considering the PN is procuring land based CAMM-ER batteries, im sure cost is not a concern.

 

[Princeps]

considering the PN is procuring land based CAMM-ER batteries, im sure cost is not a concern.

Call that misplaced priorities if you will, but it's fulfilling a different requirement.

My reasoning is that the Baburs were reduced from 16 to 12 and now the Damen corvettes also only have 12 despite there being plenty of space. JCF could also fit at least 24. And this is with assuming we can't get a VLS capable of quad packing.

 

[Princeps]

PN could easily add few more CAMMs and lose a ship to save money.

I believe this is a compromise they aren't willing to make. Something tells me they'd rather have more lightly armed Frigates and Corvettes than a few heavily armed Frigates or Destroyers for the surface fleet.

 

[Yasser76]

I believe this is a compromise they aren't willing to make. Something tells me they'd rather have more lightly armed Frigates and Corvettes than a few heavily armed Frigates or Destroyers for the surface fleet.

I understand the logic and as Quwa pointed out, lighter, cheaper vessels may well become more effective as subsystem tech and missile tech improve.

PN has a very very formidable and large enemy to the East. Heavy frigates/destroyers would mean fewer ships and also juicy targets for the Indian Navy. PN investing more in area denial.

Regarding the CAMMs, you dont buy 6 tractors and not equip them all with ploughs. You buy 5 fully equipped tractors.

 

[maverick]

Agreed, Pak has no desire for sea control, just essentially keeping IN at bay and off ur backs (and supply lines), Subs, MPAs, long rage coastal SAMs, Submarines and cruise missiles are just so much more cost effective doing this then capital ships and it looks like PN is investing heavily in these areas.

In the past we may have needed ships to attack Indias coast from close in, but increases in range and technology of missiles means we essentially just need missile carriers that can be guided externally if need be (by MPA, AEW etc). Frigates carrying Barbur/C-802/SMASH and MPAs with CM400 along with Subs do this just fine

the best defense is an offensive, PN strategy is flawed and will fail miserably.. offensive wrapons like attack subs with VLS launch capabilities shiuld be incorporated..
Yuan class is modular in nature, shiuld have had two modules with 4 vertica launchers in them