Makkah Joint Defense Agreement: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, news & updates

[Yasser76]

Heard this 20 years ago

Heard this 10 years ago


5 years ago

India is already meant to be running it's region, instead you lost Bangladesh somehow

Right now Your GDP is getting picked apart, no one needs a world factory, no one thinks it could be India anyway so pointless to talk, ai / h1b bye bye is causing chronic crisis with your youth, your tech capabilities are meh, lead in nothing at all, always risk averse yet full of self importance, indispensable in your head that's it
The world sees this too


Token gestures made India attempt to boycott the nation of Turkey lol you forgot

Yup, I remember last year how all these little indians were promising to always boycott Turkiye for holidays, now guess what? It was only 0.5% of all visitors to Turkiye, and now they have an answer from the Turks...

 

[r3alist]

Yup, I remember last year how all these little indians were promising to always boycott Turkiye for holidays, now guess what? It was only 0.5% of all visitors to Turkiye, and now they have an answer from the Turks...

Everything is a token gesture with Pakistan, yet it's everything they worry about.

 

[HRK]

Just give us nuclear weapons and forget

Simple answer "NO" it's too big of a risk .... "we could not afford" ....

 

[maverick]

If this this agreement worth anything then these countries now purpose another wider agreement of Non-Interference and No Aggression agreement to all the regional countries of larger MENA region.

Without this I am not confident about future of this Military Alliance

i agree, something is not adding up, this seems more of an effort to warn iran and its rising global influence

 

[Yasser76]

Practically speaking if you take out the Houthis, the main threats here are Iran, Israel and India. Obviously to different degrees to each state. Iran more of a concern to the Saudis, Israel more of a concern to Turkiye and India more of a concern to Pakistan. In fact Saudi has god relations with India and Pakistan has good relations with Iran.

These threats dictate Infantry or armour will not play a great part practically in this alliance I feel. Pak has enough infantry and armour for India, yes, we are outnumbered but not heavily.

Air, surface and sub surface will be the domains that all three can cooperate on but also aid each other in practical terms against threats to them. Iran and Israel will never present ground invasion threats to Saudi or Turkiye

Air

In air domain both offer fleets. of F-16s and F-15s that have exercised with each other for the last 2 decades via Anatolian Eagle and Saudi Shield. Furthermore weapons, tactics and data links are compatible. Saudi F-15s and PAF/TuAF F-16s will have no problems working with each other and with TuAF E-7s and Saudi E-3s/Erieyes and PAF Erieyes.
This is not just theoretical, exercises over the years have probably validated this concept. This gives a fleet of around 300 Saudi F-15s, 250 TuAF F-16s and 75 PAF F-16s that in theory can all integrate easily. Obviously all have different levels of capabilities and upgrades. Thsi whole concept would probably exlcude PAF own domestic network set up relying on Chinese tech and J-10s and JF-17s.

Moving forward, a joint KAAN buy for all three would make the most sense here whilst focusing on a non US AEW platform. Issue here is PAF is likely to go China route for AEW

Surface

Here interoprability becomes easier, PN has inducted MILGEM and is making Jinnah class, so will have 10-12 odd major surface vessels all interoperable with the Turks. Saudis can easily build up their capabilities here by ordering from both Turkish and Pakistani shipyards and receive manpower and training from both Turkish and Pakistan navies which have large manpower pools

Sub surface

For me here the Turkish Atilay/MILDEN class is very nteresting. Turks are now building this. A Trukish sub based on experiance from U214
PN and Saudis should get in here. For PN a small buy of 4 to replace Agosta 90B and supplement the Hangors
At the same time we can help Saudi Navy set up its sub arm and buy 4. Turks are planning 6. That would give 14 subs of same class for the alliance. More importantly these will be fully Turkish in tech and weapons.

 

[Anatolia]

Practically speaking if you take out the Houthis, the main threats here are Iran, Israel and India. Obviously to different degrees to each state. Iran more of a concern to the Saudis, Israel more of a concern to Turkiye and India more of a concern to Pakistan. In fact Saudi has god relations with India and Pakistan has good relations with Iran.

These threats dictate Infantry or armour will not play a great part practically in this alliance I feel. Pak has enough infantry and armour for India, yes, we are outnumbered but not heavily.

Air, surface and sub surface will be the domains that all three can cooperate on but also aid each other in practical terms against threats to them. Iran and Israel will never present ground invasion threats to Saudi or Turkiye

Air

In air domain both offer fleets. of F-16s and F-15s that have exercised with each other for the last 2 decades via Anatolian Eagle and Saudi Shield. Furthermore weapons, tactics and data links are compatible. Saudi F-15s and PAF/TuAF F-16s will have no problems working with each other and with TuAF E-7s and Saudi E-3s/Erieyes and PAF Erieyes.
This is not just theoretical, exercises over the years have probably validated this concept. This gives a fleet of around 300 Saudi F-15s, 250 TuAF F-16s and 75 PAF F-16s that in theory can all integrate easily. Obviously all have different levels of capabilities and upgrades. Thsi whole concept would probably exlcude PAF own domestic network set up relying on Chinese tech and J-10s and JF-17s.

Moving forward, a joint KAAN buy for all three would make the most sense here whilst focusing on a non US AEW platform. Issue here is PAF is likely to go China route for AEW

Surface

Here interoprability becomes easier, PN has inducted MILGEM and is making Jinnah class, so will have 10-12 odd major surface vessels all interoperable with the Turks. Saudis can easily build up their capabilities here by ordering from both Turkish and Pakistani shipyards and receive manpower and training from both Turkish and Pakistan navies which have large manpower pools

Sub surface

For me here the Turkish Atilay/MILDEN class is very nteresting. Turks are now building this. A Trukish sub based on experiance from U214
PN and Saudis should get in here. For PN a small buy of 4 to replace Agosta 90B and supplement the Hangors
At the same time we can help Saudi Navy set up its sub arm and buy 4. Turks are planning 6. That would give 14 subs of same class for the alliance. More importantly these will be fully Turkish in tech and weapons.

I really don’t see where this “Israel is a major threat to Türkiye” idea comes from. If Israel wanted to attack someone, they wouldn’t shy away... nobody in the region has ever been able to tell them to stop. And despite that, Türkiye has never been on their target list. We have no territorial disputes, no ideological conflict, no competing spheres of influence. Realistically, Türkiye doesn’t face any major external threat at all.

I don’t even count Greece as a serious threat. At most, you could see some tension in Cyprus, but even then Türkiye doesn’t need Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or anyone else to handle that. We’ve managed our regional issues alone for decades.

And when Pakistan had its last conflict with India, Türkiye didn’t need any “alliance,” “treaty,” or formal pact to support them politically. We did it because of our bilateral relationship.... not because of some new bloc. Keep in mind, this was before KAAN, before our new defence projects even matured.

That’s why I feel this so‑called alliance benefits Pakistan and Saudi Arabia far more than it benefits Türkiye. We don’t gain anything strategically from it, and we certainly don’t need it for our own security.

 

[the vicious kind]

Enrichment is one thing, assembling a crude explosive device another, an actual warhead a separate undertaking and then the delivery systems for that nuke warhead yet another. Pakistan did not have any working nuclear device nor delivery system in 1984. The Israeli objective was to prevent further progress in the Pakistani program and were disallowed by India because of fears of conventional conflict, not nuclear. There was no nuke device nor ability for Pakistan to respond to Israel or India in 1984 or 1985 or 1986.

You misunderstand the term nuclear threshold state.

Anyone with basic knowledge of nuclear weapons knows enrichment is the hardest and longest bottleneck. By 1983, Pakistan had 8 years of enrichment work behind it and had already conducted a successful cold test at Kirana Hills, putting it close to nuclear-threshold status.

That meant any strike risked uncontrolled escalation. And the fact that India backed off while Israel did not act alone only strengthens the point that Israel lacked the ability to sustain such a campaign independently.

Pakistani F16's are expressively prohibited by arms agreements with the US from offensive actions against India, including nuke delivery. There are US personnel stationed on PAF bases to maintain those aircraft, who regularly report to Embassy personnel on Pakistani compliance with those agreements. Not to mention you have to build a special nuke in the first place to even attach it a small fighter jets. Sorry but this talk of F16's being used for nuke delivery is fiction.

And what exactly is your source for this claim that U.S. personnel sit on Pakistani airbases and routinely report F 16 operational compliance back to the embassy.

The operational record of f-16s in our inventory itself makes your argument look even more ridiculous. . F-16s were part of the strike package during Operation Swift Retort (incursion into Indian AIrspace) after Balakot, were involved in the engagement in which Abhinandan’s MiG 21 was shot down, and were again employed during this year’s fighting, including strikes around Batagram and Kabul. Your claim here is completely bogus.

Ah yes, because a few American technicians on a PAF base apparently means Washington had x ray vision into every Pakistani weapons programme. The F 16 nuclear delivery role was never some science fiction concept. The aircraft was perfectly capable of carrying a compact gravity weapon once Pakistan had developed one.

You don't need to reveal this highly classified information on Pakistani underground facilities, which you special person somehow have access to. But frankly I think you are blowing hot air.

Okay think whatever you may about it. i dont care.

Who said supernatural ? I was merely pointing out the qualitative difference between the israeli air force and the three amigos in this pact. Let me give you a reality check, the Israeli air force is 60 plus F15's, 170 plus F16's and around 50 F35's. With Israeli allied to India and the West, you have to take their capabilities into account as well.

How exactly does Israel maintain some overwhelming qualitative edge over Saudi Arabia, Türkiye and Pakistan when Saudi Arabia fields a large fleet of more modern F 15S/SA variants (150+), while Türkiye operates a larger and arguably stronger AEW&C force and more f-16s than Israel. Regarding F-35is , Turkey and KSA are already set to recieve them in equal numbers. Pakistan has its suplmenting its J-10c fleet and getting j-35 soon. To say Israel dominates every capability or platform category is outlandish at best.

Remains to be seen who can intercept the LORA or other Israeli missiles. The HQ9 or Patriot or whatever have struggled to intercept Iranian missiles, so there are legitimate question marks on how they would perform against Israelis. The Patriot battery in Qatar didn't do anything against the LORA.......

The Spice/SOM was used by Indians in Balakot with their usual incompetence. They also used the Rafale stupidly and that is what has saved Pakistan's bacon in 2019 and 2025.

So now the argument has become: if an Israeli missile gets through, Israeli weapons are unstoppable; if a Pakistani or Turkish system gets through Israeli defences, it was luck; and if India loses aircraft, it was merely Indian incompetence. Convenient little logic you have built there.

On 7 May 2025, Pakistan and India fought what is described as the largest air battle in decades, involving roughly 110 aircraft, with fighters operating under AEW&C support, long range BVR missiles, electronic warfare and networked targeting.

Now tell me, when was the last time Israel fought anything remotely comparable? In recent decades its opponents been Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Syria’s obsolete air force and Iran. A Large scale fighter versus fighter warfare against another networked air force is a different skill set and Israel has not faced at scale for decades.

Taimoor and Raad are unproven in actual battle. Same story with the Turkish stuff. Yes the Saudis have Storm Shadows and have used them in Yemen with limited effect

Go ask the Armenians how effective Turkish drones and submunitions were, or ask Russia’s supposedly layered air defence network how well it has handled Storm Shadows and SCALPs. Your argument simply makes no sense.

Taimoor was unveiled only a year after Sindoor, while Ra’ad is primarily intended as a nuclear capable ALCM. By your logic, France’s ASMP is somehow irrelevant because it has never been used in combat, and the same would apply to Minuteman. Strategic weapons do not need to be “battle proven” to constitute a credible capability.

Israeli weapons are more advanced than what Pakistan, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are fielding, in every category. It is Israeli doctrine to have this qualitative edge over all other nations in the Mideast and South Asia. You are over-estimating yourself and under-estimate the Israelis similar to how the Arabs looked at it in the past.

Again, I have already made this point. Apart from the F 35I, there is hardly a major weapons category or platform that Türkiye, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan do not also field in some shape or form. In several areas, such as AEW&C fleet size and the proportion of fighters equipped with modern AESA radars, Israel is not even clearly ahead. That gap is also been closed rapidly.

Pakistani nukes and delivery systems are NOT going outside of the country. They are not an issue for Israeli planners as the US will simply not allow Pakistan to make such a reckless move, regardless of this pact. Neither will China.

This is most fanciful thinking of this entire pact, that it brings a nuclear umbrella to the Mideast. It does not.

Who said Pakistan is stationing nuclear weapons in Saudi Arabia or Türkiye? You keep inventing arguments nobody made. Pakistan would not need to base nuclear weapons on Saudi soil to deter Israel anyway, because its existing strategic delivery systems already cover the relevant distances.

And Pakistan’s push toward much longer range ballistic missile capability (ICBM) has already been publicly raised by U.S. officials and intelligence assessments, with Washington imposing sanctions over concerns about the programme. But apparently that development also escaped you while you were living under that rock.

And this is becoming a pattern with you. Whenever Pakistan is involved, every Pakistani capability suddenly becomes “fiction,” “impossible” or “American controlled,” while every Israeli capability becomes flawless and omnipotent. At some point that stops being analysis and starts looking like a very obvious bias.

Sindoor was an Indian aggression against mainland Pakistan, something that Pakistani planners had thought impossible because of the nuclear deterrent. That India crossed that redline is what shocked the Pakistani establishment.

I do not regard Indian air attacks, missile salvos, drone attacks and artillery bombardment as "limited strikes".

And i don not count hitting a maintenance hangar at Bholari or marginally damaging a C 130 at Nur Khan as crossing some catastrophic red line. India tried to carve out space for conventional warfare under the nuclear umbrella, but that space lasted only two or three days max.

That is precisely the point. Nuclear deterrence prevented the conflict from expanding into a much broader and more sustained war. It did exactly what deterrence was supposed to do.

 

[Aryan_B]

They should now invite Iran to join them. Muslim enemies Hindus and Jews would have sleepless nights.

Also Pakistan should put nukes in Saudi and Turkey just sayin

 

[Yasser76]

I really don’t see where this “Israel is a major threat to Türkiye” idea comes from. If Israel wanted to attack someone, they wouldn’t shy away... nobody in the region has ever been able to tell them to stop. And despite that, Türkiye has never been on their target list. We have no territorial disputes, no ideological conflict, no competing spheres of influence. Realistically, Türkiye doesn’t face any major external threat at all.

I don’t even count Greece as a serious threat. At most, you could see some tension in Cyprus, but even then Türkiye doesn’t need Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or anyone else to handle that. We’ve managed our regional issues alone for decades.

And when Pakistan had its last conflict with India, Türkiye didn’t need any “alliance,” “treaty,” or formal pact to support them politically. We did it because of our bilateral relationship.... not because of some new bloc. Keep in mind, this was before KAAN, before our new defence projects even matured.

That’s why I feel this so‑called alliance benefits Pakistan and Saudi Arabia far more than it benefits Türkiye. We don’t gain anything strategically from it, and we certainly don’t need it for our own security.

Well I think Turks gain a lot. Turkish domestic defence industries would benefit even more and of course if Israel did ever attack (and Bib has been making some big statement) Turks could fight but also have the benfit of not worrying about nuclear overhang

Additionally as we have seen with US/Iran, any long war will depelete weapons stocks quickly. No harm in have massive weapons reserves based in Saudi and Pakistan that Turks know they can easily call on

 

[the vicious kind]

So if India attacks Pakistan again, will Turkey and Saudi respond?

We did not need Saudi or Turkish military help to ground the Indian Air Force for two days, by their own admission. Pakistan can handle India on its own. What we need from Saudi Arabia is energy security and financial depth, and from Türkiye, access to advanced defence technology and industrial cooperation.

 

[Yasser76]

Anyone with basic knowledge of nuclear weapons knows enrichment is the hardest and longest bottleneck. By 1983, Pakistan had 8 years of enrichment work behind it and had already conducted a successful cold test at Kirana Hills, putting it close to nuclear-threshold status.

That meant any strike risked uncontrolled escalation. And the fact that India backed off while Israel did not act alone only strengthens the point that Israel lacked the ability to sustain such a campaign independently.




And what exactly is your source for this claim that U.S. personnel sit on Pakistani airbases and routinely report F 16 operational compliance back to the embassy.

The operational record of f-16s in our inventory itself makes your argument look even more ridiculous. . F-16s were part of the strike package during Operation Swift Retort (incursion into Indian AIrspace) after Balakot, were involved in the engagement in which Abhinandan’s MiG 21 was shot down, and were again employed during this year’s fighting, including strikes around Batagram and Kabul. Your claim here is completely bogus.

Ah yes, because a few American technicians on a PAF base apparently means Washington had x ray vision into every Pakistani weapons programme. The F 16 nuclear delivery role was never some science fiction concept. The aircraft was perfectly capable of carrying a compact gravity weapon once Pakistan had developed one.

Okay think whatever you may about it. i dont care.


How exactly does Israel maintain some overwhelming qualitative edge over Saudi Arabia, Türkiye and Pakistan when Saudi Arabia fields a large fleet of more modern F 15S/SA variants (150+), while Türkiye operates a larger and arguably stronger AEW&C force and more f-16s than Israel. Regarding F-35is , Turkey and KSA are already set to recieve them in equal numbers. Pakistan has its suplmenting its J-10c fleet and getting j-35 soon. To say Israel dominates every capability or platform category is outlandish at best.


So now the argument has become: if an Israeli missile gets through, Israeli weapons are unstoppable; if a Pakistani or Turkish system gets through Israeli defences, it was luck; and if India loses aircraft, it was merely Indian incompetence. Convenient little logic you have built there.

On 7 May 2025, Pakistan and India fought what is described as the largest air battle in decades, involving roughly 110 aircraft, with fighters operating under AEW&C support, long range BVR missiles, electronic warfare and networked targeting.

Now tell me, when was the last time Israel fought anything remotely comparable? In recent decades its opponents been Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Syria’s obsolete air force and Iran. A Large scale fighter versus fighter warfare against another networked air force is a different skill set and Israel has not faced at scale for decades.

Go ask the Armenians how effective Turkish drones and submunitions were, or ask Russia’s supposedly layered air defence network how well it has handled Storm Shadows and SCALPs. Your argument simply makes no sense.

Taimoor was unveiled only a year after Sindoor, while Ra’ad is primarily intended as a nuclear capable ALCM. By your logic, France’s ASMP is somehow irrelevant because it has never been used in combat, and the same would apply to Minuteman. Strategic weapons do not need to be “battle proven” to constitute a credible capability.


Again, I have already made this point. Apart from the F 35I, there is hardly a major weapons category or platform that Türkiye, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan do not also field in some shape or form. In several areas, such as AEW&C fleet size and the proportion of fighters equipped with modern AESA radars, Israel is not even clearly ahead. That gap is also been closed rapidly.

Who said Pakistan is stationing nuclear weapons in Saudi Arabia or Türkiye? You keep inventing arguments nobody made. Pakistan would not need to base nuclear weapons on Saudi soil to deter Israel anyway, because its existing strategic delivery systems already cover the relevant distances.

And Pakistan’s push toward much longer range ballistic missile capability (ICBM) has already been publicly raised by U.S. officials and intelligence assessments, with Washington imposing sanctions over concerns about the programme. But apparently that development also escaped you while you were living under that rock.

And this is becoming a pattern with you. Whenever Pakistan is involved, every Pakistani capability suddenly becomes “fiction,” “impossible” or “American controlled,” while every Israeli capability becomes flawless and omnipotent. At some point that stops being analysis and starts looking like a very obvious bias.

And i don not count hitting a maintenance hangar at Bholari or marginally damaging a C 130 at Nur Khan as crossing some catastrophic red line. India tried to carve out space for conventional warfare under the nuclear umbrella, but that space lasted only two or three days max.

That is precisely the point. Nuclear deterrence prevented the conflict from expanding into a much broader and more sustained war. It did exactly what deterrence was supposed to do.

Ignore him yaar, Indian troll, will do this on every major Pak Mil thread, and the fact he use conjecture and made up dreams proves it. Wait a bit now, he will be on his whatsapp group and his fellow "Pakistanis" will be along to defend him....

 

[the vicious kind]

Any Muslim country that doesn't clean up after Iran is an American / zio lackey.... right now Iran is squealing like a mouse caught in a trap .

Any advantage Iran currently enjoys is temporary. Once the Gulf states establish alternative export corridors, including land routes to Omani ports outside the Strait of Hormuz, Iran and the Houthis will lose much of the leverage they derive from threatening this maritime chokepoint.

 

[r3alist]

Practically speaking if you take out the Houthis, the main threats here are Iran, Israel and India. Obviously to different degrees to each state. Iran more of a concern to the Saudis, Israel more of a concern to Turkiye and India more of a concern to Pakistan. In fact Saudi has god relations with India and Pakistan has good relations with Iran.

These threats dictate Infantry or armour will not play a great part practically in this alliance I feel. Pak has enough infantry and armour for India, yes, we are outnumbered but not heavily.

Air, surface and sub surface will be the domains that all three can cooperate on but also aid each other in practical terms against threats to them. Iran and Israel will never present ground invasion threats to Saudi or Turkiye

Air

In air domain both offer fleets. of F-16s and F-15s that have exercised with each other for the last 2 decades via Anatolian Eagle and Saudi Shield. Furthermore weapons, tactics and data links are compatible. Saudi F-15s and PAF/TuAF F-16s will have no problems working with each other and with TuAF E-7s and Saudi E-3s/Erieyes and PAF Erieyes.
This is not just theoretical, exercises over the years have probably validated this concept. This gives a fleet of around 300 Saudi F-15s, 250 TuAF F-16s and 75 PAF F-16s that in theory can all integrate easily. Obviously all have different levels of capabilities and upgrades. Thsi whole concept would probably exlcude PAF own domestic network set up relying on Chinese tech and J-10s and JF-17s.

Moving forward, a joint KAAN buy for all three would make the most sense here whilst focusing on a non US AEW platform. Issue here is PAF is likely to go China route for AEW

Surface

Here interoprability becomes easier, PN has inducted MILGEM and is making Jinnah class, so will have 10-12 odd major surface vessels all interoperable with the Turks. Saudis can easily build up their capabilities here by ordering from both Turkish and Pakistani shipyards and receive manpower and training from both Turkish and Pakistan navies which have large manpower pools

Sub surface

For me here the Turkish Atilay/MILDEN class is very nteresting. Turks are now building this. A Trukish sub based on experiance from U214
PN and Saudis should get in here. For PN a small buy of 4 to replace Agosta 90B and supplement the Hangors
At the same time we can help Saudi Navy set up its sub arm and buy 4. Turks are planning 6. That would give 14 subs of same class for the alliance. More importantly these will be fully Turkish in tech and weapons.

This agreement has the biggest incremental effect on India.


Pakistan is helping turkey anyway, Israel or Greece, and anyway proven with Azerbaijan

Same with Saudi as a long standing principle, nothing new

I said above this understanding has always been somewhat in place 60-80% from deca

India works very hard to undermine any Muslim solidarity, it's like a robot on repeat ... create a rift with Saudi if not Iran, if not Iran then Saudi, that's it.


India has to now confront Pakistan plus support from China plus the benefits of Pak Turkey allyship ....... plus the new agreement here unprecedented




Why are they talking like this now

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[Yasser76]

We did not need Saudi or Turkish military help to ground the Indian Air Force for two days, by their own admission. Pakistan can handle India on its own. What we need from Saudi Arabia is energy security and financial depth, and from Türkiye, access to advanced defence technology and industrial cooperation.

This is it. In war we do not expect Turkish forces to fight with us

If Saudis can keep oild flowing and intercept Indian shipping in the Gulf and Turks can throw us 1-2 Sqds of F-16s to help out (Piloted by PAF), and munitions, this will help us massively

 

[Trisolaran]

Simple answer "NO" it's too big of a risk .... "we could not afford" ....

I thing there will be some transfer of know-how on both side..

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