Operation Ghazab Lil Haq (Pakistan - Afghanistan War)

[Taimoor]

Regardless of facts and regardless of your upbringing or my upbringing, all you will ever talk about on this forum is how terrible every government official or every government policy or every government statement is unless and until a certain messiah is the source and ultimate arbiter of any of the above. Your discourse would hold far more leverage if it was grounded in merit as opposed to biased beliefs.

I have listened to plenty of people on this forum, including yourself, who profess to the importance of ownership of Pakistan's true ethnic, civilisational, and genealogical origins with regards to our ongoing legacy as a nation state.

In fact, I challenge you to identify ONE SINGLE Pakistani (whether educated formatively in Pakistan or abroad) forum member who does subscribe to this "bin Qasim is our genealogical father" narrative.

The ONLY forum goers who subscribe to the "arab-origin" narrative are actually Indians, as it is Indians who have indoctrinated themselves with this convenient parallel narrative, a narrative that suits their agenda. So the question then becomes, why are YOU, a Pakistani, subscribing to that narrative?

Upbringing is important, since it gives you correct perspective. Listening to you, its like trying to engage with someone who like to comes across as pseudo intellect, and I am being generous here. Incoherent arguments, just for the sake if it, no understanding of the issue, or even attempt to understand what is said.

Since certain messiah lives 24*7 rent free in your upper chamber, I am sorry , I cant help you here. Its a mental disease, and i aint a physiologist to suggest a cure. Its hilarious you manage to bring even in this debate, feel pity for you.

"Bin Qasim our genealogical father"? Did you just made this up? Listen carefully and pay attention to what was said. I dont like to repeat myself.

You are funny character. When did I say I subscribe to arabanised history of Pakistan? Is that what you understood of all what I wrote here? Are you even paying attention?

I asked the other dude, let me ask you the same. What is our counter narrative or strategy against "Akhand bharat" and Afghan claims till Attock? Is it my or even your responsibility to come up with some solid narrative of our own to a) push back against these neighbours b) educate our own people on what is the national goal towards glory? Is there any greater Pakistan? like greater isreal/India/Aghanistan .... and if so, what is it based on?

 

[LeGenD]

That was simply a continuation of policies from the Afghan Jihad. There was a foreign occupation going on in Afghanistan in Musharraf's tenure. What was our choice? Let Americans dominate and supplant a power structure of their choosing or provide support to those resisting?

People make it sound as if Pakistani establishment committed a crime by doing so. Had they not done it, the Pakhtun power structure in the government, military and the civil society would have agitated massively in case Pakistan sat out of that mess.

As I have said in my earlier post, the blame (if you call it that, I think it was making hard choices from very challenging options on the table), has to be shared. The supporters of a particular party cannot just say "it was the establishment" when they ran the government and had their PM's hand-picked DGISI running the show. Perhaps that was the best option available then but now we are dealing with the blowback of it and that responsibility should be shared and not appropriated to the establishment only which some member of a particular political affiliation have a tendency to do.

Sir, Pakistan allowed the US to invade Afghanistan. The Taliban were supporting the Al-Qaeda Network, an organization involved in global terror plots and it brought war to our region. There was a pressing need to stop that.

The US chose Hamid Karzai to run Afghanistan, a man who lived in Pakistan and was well-known in Pakistani political circles. Hamid Karzai was willing to work with Pakistan and also the Taliban provided that they accept his Presidential system, but the Establishment ignored him.

The US removed Hamid Karzai and brought Abdullah Abdullah to power. He was more pliant but also ignored.

The Establishment preserved the Taliban because it was naively assumed to be a pro-Pakistan anti-Indian movement without having the capacity to think for itself and develop an independent foreign policy.

American mission in Afghanistan concluded when the Taliban agreed to not support the Al-Qaeda Network and similar organizations in Doha Accords. However, the Taliban do not accept the Durand Line and pushing for restoration of tribal autonomy in Pakistan via its TTP chapter. They are showing teeth to Pakistan because other neighboring countries are willing to accept them and work with them.

Now Pakistan sees a ground reality that it naively overlooked in the past.

When the ISIL movement emerged in Iraq and Syria, the post-Saddam Iraqi state made a faithful decision that it will not accept that. The post-Saddam Iraqi state reached out to all segments of the society to openly resist the ISIL movement and also welcomed foreign support to help stop that. The US and Iran answered that call. Iraq also have tensions with the US but the post-Saddam Iraqi state refused to negotiate with terrorists and welcomed American COIN support. Iraq overcame the ISIL movement with foreign support and the ISIL survivors are all in jail awaiting trial. Iraq showed strategic clarity and political will in a dire situation and it worked.

Pakistan does not have consensus-building on that level unfortunately. The Establishment is now responding to the Taliban [for valid reasons] and many are happy to see that. But the Taliban are no softies. They are well-dug and there is no alternative to them. The ongoing clashes might prolong and Pakistan might have to explore cost-effective ways to keep up.

Nevertheless, I wanted to point out that their is YES SIR mentality here, some will attempt to rationalize every decision and experiment of the Establishment. Therefore, the country is stuck with the same old. I am a fan of Musharraf and I believe that he tried to course-correct but the old-school babus got to him and convinced him to NRO and follow the same old. Please forgive my thought process if I stepped out of the line here.

 

[Master Chief]

Upbringing is important, since it gives you correct perspective. Listening to you, its like trying to engage with someone who like to comes across as pseudo intellect, and I am being generous here. Incoherent arguments, just for the sake if it, no understanding of the issue, or even attempt to understand what is said.

Since certain messiah lives 24*7 rent free in your upper chamber, I am sorry , I cant help you here. Its a mental disease, and i aint a physiologist to suggest a cure. Its hilarious you manage to bring even in this debate, feel pity for you.

"Bin Qasim our genealogical father"? Did you just made this up? Listen carefully and pay attention to what was said. I dont like to repeat myself.

You are funny character. When did I say I subscribe to arabanised history of Pakistan? Is that what you understood of all what I wrote here? Are you even paying attention?

I asked the other dude, let me ask you the same. What is our counter narrative or strategy against "Akhand bharat" and Afghan claims till Attock? Is it my or even your responsibility to come up with some solid narrative of our own to a) push back against these neighbours b) educate our own people on what is the national goal towards glory? Is there any greater Pakistan? like greater isreal/India/Aghanistan .... and if so, what is it based on?

I did not say YOU subscribe to the arabised history of Pakistan.

I said you claim it is a dominant narrative and that it is a narrative which leverages significant influence in Pakistan, which you did, didn't you?

In fact, I VERY CLEARLY stated in the post that you just replied to that you, among many other posters on PDF, acknowledge the reality of our "non-Arab" origins. Read the following paragraph once again:

"I have listened to plenty of people on this forum, including yourself, who profess to the importance of ownership of Pakistan's true ethnic, civilisational, and genealogical origins with regards to our ongoing legacy as a nation state."

Don't question my intellect when you cannot even understand my posts.

My overall point was that you summarily dismissed Bilawal Bhutto's statement because he doesn't comply with your narrative of what a government official should be, instead of giving due credit to his statement.

By the way, feel free to keep up the personal insults - they are a badge of honour for me.

 

[Taimoor]

I did not say YOU subscribe to the arabised history of Pakistan.

I said you claim it is a dominant narrative and that it is a narrative which leverages significant influence in Pakistan, which you did, didn't you?

In fact, I VERY CLEARLY stated in the post that you just replied to that you, among many other posters on PDF, acknowledge the reality of our "non-Arab" origins. Read the following paragraph once again:

"I have listened to plenty of people on this forum, including yourself, who profess to the importance of ownership of Pakistan's true ethnic, civilisational, and genealogical origins with regards to our ongoing legacy as a nation state."

Don't question my intellect when you cannot even understand my posts.

My overall point was that you summarily dismissed Bilawal Bhutto's statement because he doesn't comply with your narrative of what a government official should be, instead of giving due credit to his statement.

By the way, feel free to keep up the personal insults - they are a badge of honour for me.

LOL

So the question then becomes, why are YOU, a Pakistani, subscribing to that narrative?

You are hallucinating. Go outside , take a deep breath in fresh air, clear your mind, then come back.


Yes I do believe a big chuck of my generation or even before are confused about our identity, because thats what we were preaching in our class rooms. And that is the reason we still havent been able to come up with what greater Pakistan means. I asked you the same question, can you answer for once based on our official state narrative? If billo rani is your get out of jail card, I mean come on! Indians have put their akhand bharat map in their parliament, most Afghans who may be living as refugee in foreign country will ascribe to "land till attock" dream, what is Pakistani dream of glory?

 

[Master Chief]

LOL



You are hallucinating. Go outside , take a deep breath in fresh air, clear your mind, then come back.


Yes I do believe a big chuck of my generation or even before are confused about our identity, because thats what we were preaching in our class rooms. And that is the reason we still havent been able to come up with what greater Pakistan means. I asked you the same question, can you answer for once based on our official state narrative? If billo rani is your get out of jail card, I mean come on! Indians have put their akhand bharat map in their parliament, most Afghans who may be living as refugee in foreign country will ascribe to "land till attock" dream, what is Pakistani dream of glory?

I see you have summarily dismissed my claims and have moved on to this "greater Pakistan" conjecture. I shall take that as quiet acquiescence. No problem. A certain level of maturity is required to admit when one has been found out to have been incorrect.

OK, now let us entertain this new devilry of yours, if only for a moment.

This is literally the FIRST I am hearing of "Greater Pakistan" as a concept. I have ZERO interest in a "Greater Pakistan". I only want the Pakistan we should have had in 1947 (minus Bangladesh). Now that should have comprised erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir princely state, +/- Junagadh. Let us leave it at that.

Why on earth should we take responsibility for significantly populated bits of Afghanistan or Hindustan (which is where I presume this "Greater Pakistan" will be cleaved from)? A buffer zone here and there, maybe some occupied land for leverage later, but not any long term significant inhabited land annexation.

I think you will find VERY FEW Pakistanis want such a thing, which is why nobody has given any thought to updating maps in parliament.

Similarly, if your basis for this concept is rooted in the IVC land coverage, then this is a flawed concept, as Islamabad does not "claim current ownership" of those Harappan lands that exist in India. On the contrary, our claim (and I endorse it) is that we are the legacy state of Harappa, and Harappa (in addition to several other bronze age settlements outside of Harappa but still within coterminous Pakistan) was our rightful progenitor.

Obviously, borders shift somewhat over time and we should not have a problem with that or suddenly "demand all of those ancient lands back".

Italy is Ancient Rome's legacy state, even though most of Ancient Rome is no longer part of Italy.

You are trying to project immature and puerile Indian and Afghanistani "cope" behaviour onto us with your talk of "Greater Pakistan maps needed saar!", which is a poor strategy.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

In the video below, it seems they are uprooting the fence by quite a bit, how will the military respond/counter this?

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[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

"Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them" - William Shakespeare (Twelfth Night)

Given the super-charged geo-strategic super-phenomenon currently brewing to form a super-storm, Pakistan's "greatness" is being fueled by all these three cylinders. Only impediments are the Afgan Pashtuns, being the worst slaves of the Ram Rajya of Hindutva Bharat and Dajjalic Kingdom of Zionist Israil....

If it requires to do a "3 million (not fake one)" on these bastards this time, so be it....

 

[iron shrapnel]

Please bro - who let the talibs seek sanctuary in Pakistan - Gen Musharraf!!!

Assalamualaikum.

While he might have let the Taliban in for... There was little that could have been done to avoid it...

Porous borders, something Musharraf actually wanted to do then was to fence the border but the U.S wasn't willing to let him do it.. one, because of Afghan group pressure and second, of keeping Pakistan on a back foot, potentially destablizing it to the point where de nuclearizing Pakistan could be pushed forward...

As of fighting the Taliban is concerned... By playing Good Taliban/ Bad Taliban we were able to manage our resources whatever we could...

We tend to forget the conditions of late 90s and early 2000s P.A western units, FCB and FCKP...
Bad logistics ( old near rusted away vehicles )
Archaic weapons
Bad training especially for the constabularies...
Lack of simple equipment such as bullet proof vests were missing in large numbers..

The worst thing Musharraf did was the handling of the Bugti case... That might have been one of his biggest blunders.

We tend to forget where we started from and where we are now.. The pain of loss is immense but a man with a broken door can only stand guard for so long...

 

[ghazi52]

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[Hopefully Pessimistic]

"When the Americans were in Afghanistan, they had built almost a hundred forward operating bases. Whenever there was an attack anywhere, Apache helicopters would reach there in two to five minutes. Pakistan should also do similar planning so that wherever a bullet or rocket is fired, a helicopter reaches there within five minutes.

Now, the need for helicopters has decreased. Quadcopters or drones can do this job.

But for this, proper strategic planning is necessary. Soldiers should be given smartwatches and surveillance drones should be connected with them. This way, many lives can be saved because the soldiers will be getting real-time information about where any terrorist is hiding.

Pakistan can defeat terrorists only by using technology. As long as the old, worn-out approach continues, terrorism will not decrease."

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@Panzerkiel Unfortunately even within Pakistan, fire fights can go on for hours with little to no support coming. There is low morale and trust amongst troops. In Balochistan the situation is worse.

 

[user]

Indian and Afghan propaganda handles are posting a picture of a PAF fighter pilot, that clearly appears to be from 90s, in F-7 cockpit. They are claiming that's the pilot who had bombed the "Charsi Center" in Afghanistan and they sought revenge.

The interesting part is, they don't know the rank of the pilot but know his name and home location.

 

[Waz]

Abu Bakr RA, Umar Khattab RA and Uthman RA, with exception of Ali RA

What do you mean by this, please explain?

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Pakistan must seriously abandon its usual constrained and passive, pascifist mindset and start thinking more strategically to re-shape the region in our benefit in a sustainable way, instead of being timid and facing aggression from others. It's something we have to learn from our Turkish allies.

All the regions at our border that give us a strategic advantage should be annexxed, not only tiny pockets like the Ghudwana enclave was.

If what @Saifullah says is true, and Nuristan harbours a small population of mostly non-Pashtuns upto 200k, then annexxing it becomes quite feasible, considering the population won't be hostile and insignficant in size.

We should do this wherever feasible, and where it isn't feasible we can de-populate those areas by evacuating them and shelling. This can make our border a truly defensible Pakistani designed border.

At the same time we can use a route into Northern Afghanistan and revive a new front led by Massoud's son to capture the Northern territories and make them an ally to encircle the Taliban. If they manage to capture Kabul, we can even make a deal with them for PAF to control Bagram airbase.

Instead of the old flawed idea of "strategic depth" by empowering extremists, Pakistan can use force and military might to reshape the region more favourable.

New territories, new allies, expand where feasible.

What do you guys think? It can seriously strengthen us even against India.

@Master Chief @Asif @Waz @Ak01 @kimjongun @rafale @iron shrapnel @Taimoor @PAKISTANFOREVER

 

[hasssanali8998]

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Pakistan must seriously abandon its usual constrained and passive, pascifist mindset and start thinking more strategically to re-shape the region in our benefit in a sustainable way, instead of being timid and facing aggression from others. It's something we have to learn from our Turkish allies.

All the regions at our border that give us a strategic advantage should be annexxed, not only tiny pockets like the Ghudwana enclave was.

If what @Saifullah says is true, and Nuristan harbours a small population of mostly non-Pashtuns upto 200k, then annexxing it becomes quite feasible, considering the population won't be hostile and insignficant in size.

We should do this wherever feasible, and where it isn't feasible we can de-populate those areas by evacuating them and shelling. This can make our border a truly defensible Pakistani designed border.

At the same time we can use a route into Northern Afghanistan and revive a new front led by Massoud's son to capture the Northern territories and make them an ally to encircle the Taliban. If they manage to capture Kabul, we can even make a deal with them for PAF to control Bagram airbase.

Instead of the old flawed idea of "strategic depth" by empowering extremists, Pakistan can use force and military might to reshape the region more favourable.

New territories, new allies, expand where feasible.

What do you guys think? It can seriously strengthen us even against India.

@Master Chief @Asif @Waz @Ak01 @kimjongun @rafale @iron shrapnel @Taimoor @PAKISTANFOREVER

AGREED.

Pakistan NEEDS to become aggressive and more assertive in pursuing our national interests. We have the means but not the will. We need to become more focused and not give a flying F**k about "brotherhood" with foreigners or what the rest of the world thinks. F**k all of them. Pakistan needs to pursue power and annex more territories of afghanistan. We NEED to stamp our authority and show our enemies who is boss and who is superior.