PA MLRS, Self Propelled and towed artillery [BM-11, Fatah-I GMLRS, Fatah-II] - News, Updates & Discussions

[Hussain]

Yes. The second picture I posted in #303 is their product which contains the AH4.

The point in the article you provided a link to is incorrect. the PLAGF does not equip towed artillery similar to the AH4, its for the reasons I stated earlier. the PLAGF does not like the M777 either. towed artillery has no use in the PLAGF's current concept of operations.

Towed artillery. Whether they are large or small caliber, or twin-barreled anti-aircraft guns, PLAGF is phasing them out. The vast majority of towed artillery has been completely phased out, with very few units still waiting for their newer vehicle mounted artillery.

It's an old article, from 2016, and obviously anyone sitting outside China will have their own limitations. The point was that Norinco and others do produce hardware strictly for export, as well.

The PLAGF"s doctrine and PA's doctrine do differ in terms of artillery.

On a personal level, having seen SPH shoot and scoot, towed artillery doesn't make sense, especially in today's multilayered world, where now you have drones causing havoc as well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

On a personal level, having seen SPH shoot and scoot, towed artillery doesn't make sense, especially in today's multilayered world, where now you have drones causing havoc as well.

True.

These are getting to be obsolete, and unworkable in any reasonable ORBAT.

One question, though: will SP artillery be able to negotiate difficult mountain bends? Towed artillery with a separate tractor at the end of a tow may still just about manage.

 

[farooqbhai]

PA seem content with M198 and a handful Panthers as towed 155mm for now.

We don't have any panters operational. Except a training piece

 

[Hussain]

True.

These are getting to be obsolete, and unworkable in any reasonable ORBAT.

One question, though: will SP artillery be able to negotiate difficult mountain bends? Towed artillery with a separate tractor at the end of a tow may still just about manage.

In the initial 6X6 Archer, I think this was the logic. Subsequently, the latest 8X8 version focuses on payload / capacity rather than maneuverability.

Nonetheless, stationery artillery pieces are a sitting duck, and in today's fast evolving battle space, how long would a lonely howitzer howling from a mountain post last?

 

[Michael]

True.

These are getting to be obsolete, and unworkable in any reasonable ORBAT.

One question, though: will SP artillery be able to negotiate difficult mountain bends? Towed artillery with a separate tractor at the end of a tow may still just about manage.

1. All places that can be reached by the M777's towing vehicle can be reached by the SH15. Only the helicopter lifting positions may not be reachable by SH15.
2, PLAGF is equipped with a large number of Bobcat ATVs, which are very small and nimble. It has vehicle mounted small to medium sized guns and it can reach many places.


4, MLRS and UAVs can make up for blind fire zones that cannot be reached by any vehicle mounted weapon.

 

[Joe Shearer]

1. All places that can be reached by the M777's towing vehicle can be reached by the SH15. Only the helicopter lifting positions may not be reachable by SH15.
2, PLAGF is equipped with a large number of Bobcat ATVs, which are very small and nimble. It has vehicle mounted small to medium sized guns and it can reach many places.
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4, MLRS and UAVs can make up for blind fire zones that cannot be reached by any vehicle mounted weapon.

Very relevant, and thank you very much.

 

[Afif]

True.

These are getting to be obsolete, and unworkable in any reasonable ORBAT.

Disagreed. While SP artillery is a better option if you can afford it in large numbers, still towed guns remain relevant in all terrains. Specially ultra light smaller ones.

 

[Michael]

Disagreed. While SP artillery is a better option if you can afford it in large numbers, still towed guns remain relevant in all terrains. Specially ultra light smaller ones.

This is a classic misconception.

1, any combat position that can be reached by using a tractor trailer to tow an M777 can be reached by an SH15. Tractor + M777 out sizes the SH15.

2, When M777 uses helicopter lifting to reach some special areas, SH15 can't do it. But in modern battlefield, transport helicopter aircraft are in high danger and very easy to be destroyed by cheap weapons like RPG. Also, the range of the M777 is within the attack distance of UAV/FPV. Once detected by a recon aircraft it means destruction without any possibility of escape/defense.
We can make up for this sole shortcoming of the SH15 with MLRS and UAV/FPV.

3, The SH15 is the equivalent of directly integrating the M777 and the tractor in one vehicle, along with the operator and shells it requires. the M777 requires a tractor or separate vehicle to transport the operator and shells.
Note that in special cases, the SH15 can be operated by one person for all operations (driving, unfolding/folding the gun mount, loading/firing ......) The M777 cannot perform all operations by one person.

4. The SH15 transitions from the traveling state to the open gun state in about 1 minute. Within 1 minute of the end of a heavy artillery barrage, the SH15 is out of combat position. the M777 obviously can't do that.

Special Notes:
M777 here stands for all towed artillery. sh15 stands for all vehicle mounted artillery.

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This is the thread about MLRS . Let's end our discussion about towed artillery and vehicle mounted artillery.
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[Afif]

This is a classic misconception.

1, any combat position that can be reached by using a tractor trailer to tow an M777 can be reached by an SH15. Tractor + M777 out sizes the SH15.

2, When M777 uses helicopter lifting to reach some special areas, SH15 can't do it. But in modern battlefield, transport helicopter aircraft are in high danger and very easy to be destroyed by cheap weapons like RPG.

Vulnerability of helicopters didn't make it or artillery Raids irrelevant. Both remain a sought after capability. Beside, when towed guns are lifted they usually aren't put so close to the Frontline where helicopter would be within envelop of RPG, or even Manpad.

Also, the range of the M777 is within the attack distance of UAV/FPV. Once detected by a recon aircraft it means destruction without any possibility of escape/defense.

Not true.

 

[falcon34]

@Oscar
Can you change the name of this thread to include artillery in it.

 

[falcon34]

@Panzerkiel
Sir any idea about Fatah 4, would it be a traditional BM with countermeasures or some sort of Glide vehicle like fatah 2 is being worked on it possibly HGV?.

 

[Michael]

@Panzerkiel
Sir any idea about Fatah 4, would it be a traditional BM with countermeasures or some sort of Glide vehicle like fatah 2 is being worked on it possibly HGV?.

I would not recommend Pakistan to look into HGV at this stage. of course, false public opinion campaigns are another matter.

HGV may look like ballistic missile technology, but it actually requires a very large technological system behind it. Pakistan does not possess these technological systems at the moment, nor does it have enough money to develop them. The investment in these hidden technological systems is a huge amount and it far exceeds the investment in the development of HGVs.
As for hypersonic missiles that some countries claim to have HGV technology, just take it as entertainment news, no need to take it seriously.

 

[falcon34]

I would not recommend Pakistan to look into HGV at this stage. of course, false public opinion campaigns are another matter.

HGV may look like ballistic missile technology, but it actually requires a very large technological system behind it. Pakistan does not possess these technological systems at the moment, nor does it have enough money to develop them. The investment in these hidden technological systems is a huge amount and it far exceeds the investment in the development of HGVs.
As for hypersonic missiles that some countries claim to have HGV technology, just take it as entertainment news, no need to take it seriously.

I was just wondering, cause a supersonic glide vehicle is used on Fatah 2. The next two versions will have ranges 450 and 700 km, how would they build upon the SGV of Fatah 2, an SGV for 700km is kinda slow air defense will pick on it.
This is kinda mysterious, where do you go after you've fielded an SGV, natural progression is an HGV, but we don't know if infrastructure or technology exists for such a system, but the question still remains where do you go after an SGV.

 

[Michael]

I was just wondering, cause a supersonic glide vehicle is used on Fatah 2. The next two versions will have ranges 450 and 700 km, how would they build upon the SGV of Fatah 2, an SGV for 700km is kinda slow air defense will pick on it.
This is kinda mysterious, where do you go after you've fielded an SGV, natural progression is an HGV, but we don't know if infrastructure or technology exists for such a system, but the question still remains where do you go after an SGV.

There are many options for improving the surprise capability and hit accuracy of rockets/missiles. Pakistan should start with the easiest route and build its own basic technology platform first and then develop it gradually. Don't give yourself a very high target in the beginning.

The biggest difficulty with HGV technology is that the control center maintains stable communication and control over the vehicle even when it is in hypersonic flight. This requires very strong technical capabilities and a lot of money.

 

[Bentley777]

Any one knows what PA thinking about ATAGS will they get it or will focus more on getting SPA more like SH-15