PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Ali_Baba]

I don't disagree with you, the Turks and Chinese will look after their interests too. But the Turks and Chinese have never placed sanctions on Pakistan as far as I'm aware, of course the Chinese will not give their high end stuff, like the J20, and the PAF won't be stupid stupid enough to ask for something like that. How do we know the PAF was only allowed PL15 with J10? I'm sure I've seen the PAF show the PL15 on Thunders. Maybe it's an avionics compatibility issue, given the similar architecture in Block 3 Thunders and J10Cs? Wasn't the PAF looking to acquire the J10 anyway, or are you implying the Chinese forced it down the throat of PAF?

I think someone from the PAF would need to highlight this particular point. Some possibilities are :

a) Technical capabilities prohibit this due to integration issues arising from the differences between Block II and Block III avionics ?
b) Work is in progress to do the integration as we all speak and it will take time ?
c) PAF has never asked for it for earlier blocks, nor intends to ?
d) PAF has now completed the integration work of the PL15 on the Block IIs, and it will be the "next" surprise to the IAF made a few days before any possible new conflict as was the appearance of PL15 on Block III's was made.
e) CATIC denied its integration to Block IIs to try and promote the J10CE.

We don't know, but it is unfair to suggest it is solely down to e) while not given ground to possibilities a-d until a formal explanation/rationale is seen. All people can do is speculate on it. It is possible to put together an inference based on observation for e), but I still think the others are equally the right possibilities.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

Lets not forget about the Soybeans (bit of a big finger to Pakistan given Pakistan did not use/eat much in the way of soybeans)...

it was an offer which we couldnt have refused!
so, we are still finding it difficult to refuse f16s!

USA wants to deny, there is a dilemma with the purchase of American weapons!

old capitalist style

 

[Trailer23]

Honestly, I think Pakistan should pay more attention to its old friends - Turkey and Saudi Arabia as they move toward new next-generation aircraft - F-35 A/B.

Pakistan should seek advice from these important partners and funding solutions (more loans and begging whatever it works) to receive more 30-40 F-35A/B ASAP while they should retire older grandpa F-16 aircrafts junk (Block 15/50 + Israeli-infested upgrade new offer), sell them all. And India will be shocked and worrisome, they wouldn't sleep well everyday.

Honestly..., I don't know where you get the idea of brining up F-35's ...

Operating an F-35 is not like a Vespa.

Q. Why would KSA fund our Jets?

Have you seen the price tag on a F-35 (lately)?

Do you know the cost of operating one just for a single shortie?

Trust me, it's just easier to dream. Plus I've heard it's cheaper.

[Batey crore ki - duqaan pakorro ki]

 

[Blain2]

How would the PAF fund USD10-12bn to replace their viper fleet? This isn't the 80s anymore with US aid. New Vipers, in addition to more J10CE, potentially Block4/PFX JF17, separate PFX, and J35 is all unaffordable.

Nothing is unaffordable if it is considered a security imperative for the country.

Multiple ways to skin this cat. We will find fiscal space to manage it iA.

 

[Blain2]

Yes, the Chinese are as ruthless and predatory over sales as the Americans and everyone else.

The Americans have a better setup for weapons sales where they provide both the product, and the "financial services" to help buy the product. China does not have that at all, they want upfront hard cash in dollars(not their own currency but f-----g dollars while they want everyone else to "use" their currency). That is what Michael refers to as the "extra burden" of sales to the PAF as China does not provide financial services for countries to buy their military products the way that the USA does. That capability has a lot of advantages for ease of procurement and works for PAF alot for sure.

I have dealt with enough Chinese companies to know how they operate.

Chinese have that and more. I don't know what your information is based on, but I can tell you it's not exactly right. Chinese have given even more "financial services" to Pakistan with easier terms than the Americans. Countless cases come to mind.

Granted the American process is more transparent, but Chinese and Pakistan have been dealing with financing for a very long time. On top of this, Chinese offer native capacity building for many of the programs which is a strategic upside.

 

[Blain2]

Honestly..., I don't know where you get the idea of brining up F-35's ...

Operating an F-35 is not like a Vespa.

Q. Why would KSA fund our Jets?

Have you seen the price tag on a F-35 (lately)?

Do you know the cost of operating one just for a single shortie?

Trust me, it's just easier to dream. Plus I've heard it's cheaper.

[Batey crore ki - duqaan pakorro ki]

It's all relative. The exact same questions were brought up with the induction of F-16s in the early 80s.

With time, economy has also grown and in the coming years, like the F-16 program, the US side will open up F-35 sales to second tier allied countries and Pakistan could be one of them.

Never say never, but I think Pakistan's 5th generation build out will be around Chinese platforms.

 

[Ak01]

Chinese have that and more. I don't know what your information is based on, but I can tell you it's not exactly right. Chinese have given even more "financial services" to Pakistan with easier terms than the Americans. Countless cases come to mind.

Granted the American process is more transparent, but Chinese and Pakistan have been dealing with financing for a very long time. On top of this, Chinese offer native capacity building for many of the programs which is a strategic upside.

What capacity has the jf17 built

 

[Hussain]

What capacity has the jf17 built

are you aware of the number of patents we have because of Jeff?

 

[Blain2]

What capacity has the jf17 built

What foundational capacity has it not provided for a country that has never built a fighter aircraft on its soil?

A fighter aircraft that we get to modify and test on our own soil. An aircraft that never has to be sent overseas for upgrades, refurbishment, mid life upgrades and weapons integration. An aircraft that allows our engineers, coders and technicians to work on and enhance their skills. How is it not a major step for Pakistan to have the backbone of its Air Force supported in country with most of the technology being integrated by its own people working closely with the Chinese?

How has it not helped spark the initial incubation efforts in the NASTP and associated institutions? Yes, these may not be perfect but they have allowed the eco-system to start thinking forward and looking ahead.

These may be baby steps for countries like the US/China, but for Pakistan, this is a generational leap thanks to the JF-17 program.

The single most important thing is that it has given confidence to the PAF and our aeronautical industry to start thinking boldly and trying out interesting projects. Which is exactly what you want.

I, for one, am extremely grateful and also pleased to see the sea-change the JF-17 program has brought to the thinking/mindset of our security planners.

 

[Ibbi32]

ah yes, everyone should forget their own interests and focus on ours amirite?

China, and the Turks do the same BTW. Why was the PAF only allowed to buy PL-15's with J-10s?

Why *should* the us help a competitor's sale?

The problem i see with this logic is that if we were suppose lets say buy 100 amraams from the us and tensions recently spiked with india . The us would put us through all sorts of delays and withold the sale until situation calms down etc. if we bought 100 pl-15s from china and next day a war with india starts the chinese would happily fast track the missiles and more from their own should need arise.

The difference is the us views us as an unreliable security partner that helps them against terrorism and acts a reigonal counterbalance against neighbouring states. They dont mind selling us weapons to defend ourselves but theyll mind if we achieve any conclusive superiority over india.

Meanwhile china views us as its closest partner in tackling India and not letting its rise pose a threat to Chinese interests. In this they will subsidise arms and give us some of its own fighting capability to give india a bloody nose every once and a while.

 

[hussain0216]

makes sense the f16 are huge leverage on us , Americans dont want to loose it

In the past Pakistan had no options so U.S played stupid games, hell we only got BVRs because of Afghan war

But now Pakistan has multiple options and every option means less U.S leverage and control



I bet if the U.S could turn back the clock, to keep us away from China they would have pushed the F16

My feeling is this isn't just about Pakistan, it's about the Arabs and Pakistans relationship and the way this could mean more Chinese weapons or deals with multiple Muslim countries



Pakistan victory over India using Chinese weapons was also a big eye opener


And I think the U.S is hoping that if it plays ball and even offers the V that Pakistan can be coaxed away from China and Chinese weapons and Pakistan can be part of the pro American Arab block




If Pakistan plays smart we can continue with a strong relationship with China and get support for the F16s and maybe even add new builds

 

[Faani83]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[KingQamaR]

The US used to have the " fighter mafia", but the PAF has the Viper mafia there comes a time when we need to let go guys. I get all the arguments about leveraging all the know how, expertise, and infrastructure we've invested in the platform, and we should make the most out of what's left in the airframe, but I don't think new airframes are worth it. Clearly the PAF likes squeeze every ounce of utility from its platforms, given the fact that we're still using Mirages, and I think we only stopped using the F86 sabre in the early 80s!! When it should have belonged in the museum!! I don't think the early Block JF17s are going anywhere soon, they may grow though an MLU type life extension, given that fact we've kept the Mirages flying for so long. If not, more new airframes are likely. I think the backbone of the PAF will comprise more advanced JF17s and J10s.

It's noteworthy that the Vipers didn't appear prominently in the May conflict, playing a backup role it seems, why is that? The US pressure after Feb 2019 not to use them against India? Maybe. Or maybe the PAF realised it needed a longer range BVR platform/missile combo than the Viper/amraam? Or maybe it wasn't satisfied with the lack of integration of Link16 with it's own TDL? There's a number of compromises when it comes to using the Viper. Why should we invest further in a platform that has so many strings attached and that is outgunned and outranged by the J10/PL15 combo, as well as being tightly integrated into our own TDL?

Pakistan’s F16 will only be flown and used as a force multiplier in a defensive situations. So wont be used in-any offensive on striking or attacking enemy targets,

 

[Scorpio]

Why would PAF want to keep them airworthy through 2040 if they are to become irrelevant due to outdated Avionics and armament package?

Very relevant and important question... Why Investment in plateform that will become irrelevant year by year .. in future

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistan’s F16 will only be flown and used as a force multiplier in a defensive situations. So wont be used in-any offensive on striking or attacking enemy targets,

As of now, there are only 20 J10CEs and ~30 Block III JF17s that "outclass" the F16 in range for BVR combat. The F16 fleet is close to the Block II fleet in terms of BVR capability(with slight edge to the F16 I reckon if you get the tape measure out), so I still think it will remain as a front line fighter for the PAF. There are not enough PL15 carriers to relegate the F16 to a third-tier yet. PAF F16s are part of the offensive fleet, it just happens that the J10CEs were deployed in the most critical sector and as such they bagged all of the kills and therefore all of the glory it seems.