PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Scorpio]

Do you really think PAF can afford new block or even V kits in future and America can let us have without some Do more demand

This package is for new Link-16 terminals with cryptography and other updates added post-2020. Basically, our F-16s today can only comms on Mode 4, the upgrade will allow them to comms and data share on Mode 5 with the latest US, NATO, and European built aircraft (that BD and Gulf partners will use).

$686 M sounds like a lot, but it's for 70+ F-16s and for coverage till 2040. That is the key date: whatever will replace the F-16 Block-15s will be fully inducted and operating by 2040, meaning an order (be it for J-35AE or otherwise, and don't sleep on "otherwise") will be done by 2030.

Moreover, there's a nicely nested hint in the DSCA notification re: a possible Block-72 or at least V-upgrade path. When you break down all of the things the PAF will get on this package, one thing is totally unnecessary to the Link-16, but critical for V/B72.

hi k

 

[Trailer23]

It's all relative. The exact same questions were brought up with the induction of F-16s in the early 80s.

I just don't see how its all relative.

I don't think there is anyone here that might recall what questions were brought up with the induction of the Falcons/Vipers back in the 80's.

The US only approved of the SALE - because we were gonna use 'em against their arch enemy - USSR

Once the Soviet Union collapsed, there was the Pressler Amendment...sanctions & what not.

Then they needed us again for their: War on Terror

End Result ... 18 Block 52's

You'll get something new when they want you for another War.

With time, economy has also grown and in the coming years, like the F-16 program, the US side will open up F-35 sales to second tier allied countries and Pakistan could be one of them.

Pakistan will NEVER get F-35 (period).

What exactly will you do with F-35's?

Those old F-16's come with End-User Agreement.

Lord knows what that hi-tech b!tch would come with.

Never say never, but I think Pakistan's 5th generation build out will be around Chinese platforms.

I already said 'Never' above.

Some people have hinted out over the possibility of getting a couple used Vipers.

Okay, that might not be a bad idea, especially if they are Block 40 and above.

Trust me, old-ass (Used) Vipers are better than Mirage III/V & F-7's - anyday.

Chinese Platforms - thatis another debate.

 

[Toxic]

The engine block isn’t some crazy secret.

Paa did not want to pay for Zulus without fmf. We decided against buying them.

T129s were selected, US denied export permits to a competitor. Literally nothing crazy nothing secret.
If the us was so uptight about exports to pak, why were GTs for Jinnah and Babur not blocked via turkey, and why were turbines for our helicopters not blocked either?

Then why did they allow the Turks to export them to Nigeria?

 

[Ak01]

Then why did they allow the Turks to export them to Nigeria?

Do I need to spoon feed you?

Did Nigeria replace their ah1z order with t129s or supplement them

 

[Strawman]

Then why did they allow the Turks to export them to Nigeria?

The Nigerian sale went through because the export cutoff seems to be 6 airframes. Nigeria stayed below it, Pakistan's requirement far exceeded that and the deal stalled. Same deal with the Philippines. They capped their order at 6 for the same reason Nigeria did.

 

[Starlord]

I think we should pay America cash or full price and request New F-16's, Mile tu mile warna Wheat/Aataa tu mil hi jaye ga, Bechari bhooki awaam ko kuch tu mile ga

 

[Scorpio]

New F-16 blk 72 is possible financially and practically due mood changes history of American..

PAF might opt for used blk 52 and then V kits for them .. again unlikely due to unfornt cost ..

Of all the things listed there, the only one the PAF actually operates is the F-16, i.e. the operating infrastructure is all there to support it, including Blk72. The rest are all limited to statements here and there. Yes, they're plausible, but then I wouldn't deny the same standard to the fighters we already operate. In that sense, the F-16 Blk72s are also plausible, especially in an environment where the US is much, much more adversarial against China and wants to force alignment from other countries on the matte

 

[Scorpio]

why haven't we ordered any j10CE man , that part is confusing to me .

Money metters ... Existing in 20 J10s are already on loan...

May be Arab finance can do the magic here

 

[Blain2]

Very relevant and important question... Why Investment in plateform that will become irrelevant year by year .. in future

Because most of those asking these question can't seem to look/think past the current DSCA disclosure. This a stepping stone to regenerating the fleet capability. It is not a one and done exercise.

 

[hasssanali8998]

May be Arab finance can do the magic here

are we really still believing in fairy tales , Saudis used us as a bargaining chip . we are not getting anything back

 

[Blain2]

I just don't see how its all relative.

I don't think there is anyone here that might recall what questions were brought up with the induction of the Falcons/Vipers back in the 80's.

The US only approved of the SALE - because we were gonna use 'em against their arch enemy - USSR

Once the Soviet Union collapsed, there was the Pressler Amendment...sanctions & what not.

Then they needed us again for their: War on Terror

End Result ... 18 Block 52's

You'll get something new when they want you for another War.

Pakistan will NEVER get F-35 (period).

What exactly will you do with F-35's?

Those old F-16's come with End-User Agreement.

Lord knows what that hi-tech b!tch would come with.

I already said 'Never' above.

Some people have hinted out over the possibility of getting a couple used Vipers.

Okay, that might not be a bad idea, especially if they are Block 40 and above.

Trust me, old-ass (Used) Vipers are better than Mirage III/V & F-7's - anyday.

Chinese Platforms - thatis another debate.

My friend, you may not have been around. I was and quite a few others who happen to be on this forum. I had newspaper cuttings from the Dawn when F-16s were agreed on and there were opinions a plenty including the usual "ham ghareeb qaum hain" crowd. There was even talk of acquiring E-3C Sentry/E-2C Hawkeye and Abrams tanks in those days. The exact same questions were asked within the PAF and also even in the Army when the induction of Cobras was being looked into. It was a cost undertaking never seen before in the PAF.

When the US and Pakistani interests in GWOT converged and they cleared 36 (not 18 mind you, those are what are finances afforded) blk 52s, we got 18 new and then we also got to upgrade the entire F-16 fleet to blk52 avionics suite and weapons package. Essentially the exact same exercise undertaken by all the NATO Air Forces and even Taiwan et-al. So now you have a 70+ fleet with a current BVR capability which outperforms every Indian platform except the Rafale's Meteor. So let's not minimize the impact of this. Indians were scared shitless pitting their MKIs and everything else in 2019 (and losing 2 of theirs in the process) against this very fleet.

The rest, I am not sure what you are implying there. Just like F-16s were an impossibility for Pakistan in the 70s and F-35s were an impossibility for the Turks, they became or are becoming a possibility. In the world of geo-pol, you cannot write anything off. Second, if Pakistan brings its own finances to the table and Americans decide to open up F-35 for its second tier allies, then it's quite possible for Pakistan to purchase/operate it. However, I believe PAF has decided that it will go with J-35 so this debate on F-35 is simply moot.

 

[hasssanali8998]

we got 18 new and then we also got to upgrade the entire F-16 fleet to blk52 avionics suite and weapons package

can you please clear out what aur f16 fleet looks like now , here you are saying all of our fleet has blk 52 avionics suite , i thought the rest were f16 MLUs . its soo confusing .

 

[Blain2]

Money metters ... Existing in 20 J10s are already on loan...

May be Arab finance can do the magic here

Yes, it matters and you borrow. Every single country in the world finances these acquisitions. So would Pakistan. Every single country pays the debt forward, so would Pakistan. Do you think Amreeka Bahadur takes out $900B for its defense spending every year out of its reserves? No, they just finance the hell out of it. Not saying that is the right way to do it, but that is par for the course across the globe.

 

[Blain2]

can you please clear out what aur f16 fleet looks like now , here you are saying all of our fleet has blk 52 avionics suite , i thought the rest were f16 MLUs . its soo confusing .

All of our Peacegate 1 F-16s (the original purchase) were MLU'd to blk52 specifications, radar, avionics and weapons.

Pakistan was approved for 60 kits to refurbish its PG1 F-16s and any additional A/Bs we were shopping around for then.

These kits included the following Blk-52 avionics including Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits:

• APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
• Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
• AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
• AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
• Have Quick I/II Radios;
• Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
• SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
• Reconnaissance pod capability;
• Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);

MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

• 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
• 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
• 1 Unit Level Trainer;
• 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.

 

[puttputt]

Why didn't the PAA go down the route you are suggesting to get the AH-1Zs ? PAA sat on the issue for many many years before it decided to go for the Chinese platform.

PAA was okay with paying for AH-1Zs; GHQ didn't want to proceed any further, likely due to competing fiscal priorities at the time (VT4, SH-15).

Moreover, the PAA had signed onto the T129 ATAK specifically because Turkey offered a flexible loan program wherein the Turkish government literally paid for the units upfront and Pakistan would repay them later. While the US blocked the deal, Pakistan didn't lose anything financially, as the Turks baked protections into the program from the start.

Also worth noting that, when we take a step back, PAA hasn't gotten much love from GHQ in general until the Z-10ME-2 acquisition. The PAA guys are making do with old transport helicopters, for example. These would also need to be replaced, and I am 100% sure the PAA will work harder to get more Bell-412s than any other type, for the same reasons the "Viper Mafia" here is talking about the F-16.

Anyways, what we can 99% be sure of with this recent upgrade package is that the PAF is seeking the F-16V upgrade for the Block-52s. Regardless of whether they get more F-16s, the PAF isn't going to let one of its key fighters fly without an AESA radar, full stop.

These Block-52s, even without an SLEP, have a long life ahead of them, well past 2040. If SLEPs are applied, we're then talking like 2060+. Even with just these 18 upgraded F-16s, the PAF can aptly participate in exercises with NATO and support any coalition missions with Gulf partners.

I also have no doubt that the PAF would love second-hand F-16C/D Block 25, 32, 42, and 52s wherever available. However, I doubt the US would release any of those without at least some new-build orders in the mix, too. So, a limited 12~18 Block-72 order is possible, and whatever additional number of used PW-equipped C/Ds to bring the PAF up to its planned strength (pre-Earthquake) of 55+ units.