PAF F-16 | Discussions

Al Jazeera is reporting that this deal is an aid package and not a sale. Why would US give aid to Pakistan?

My understanding is that it is a deal for which Pakistan would pay for all the items.


The upgrade package itself is a significant one and F-16 would now remain in play for much longer. Al Jazeera also claims that this deal is to put pressure on India.
Think what they may! in current wartime dynamics PAF was in Delima that F16s were not compatible/not integrated with net-centric warfare setup that Pakistan built.

hence, they were out of fight (2nd tier) in air combat with IAF - there was real threat of fratricide by PIADS on F16s. so PAF was trying to resolve and now it will manage.

IAF will be facing Chinese manufactured weapons in future.
 
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Think what they may! in current wartime dynamics PAF was in Delima that F16s were not compatible/not integrated with net-centric warfare setup that Pakistan built.

hence, they were out of fight (2nd tier) in air combat with IAF - there was real threat of fratricide by PIADS on F16s. so PAF was trying to resolve and now it will manage.

IAF will be facing Chinese manufactured weapons in future.
But same F-16s we’re linked to AWACS in 2019 OP SR via TDL (receiving complete air picture) so I doubt they are not integrated in Net Centric environment PAF has been focusing on for quite some time now
 
Think what they may! in current wartime dynamics PAF was in Delima that F16s were not compatible/not integrated with net-centric warfare setup that Pakistan built.

hence, they were out of fight (2nd tier) in air combat with IAF - there was real threat of fratricide by PIADS on F16s. so PAF was trying to resolve and now it will manage.

IAF will be facing Chinese manufactured weapons in future.

PAF F16s have link-16, but they are the older hardware based low-bandwidth versions, the new terminals are higher bandwidth and software based. It gives more flexibility making the F16s "smarter", and harder to jam being potentially configurable as they are software based.
 
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That was under Biden, we are under Trump, so attitude is now very different towards Pakistan and India

True, but the Trump term will be over, and the Democrats will win the next election it seems, and USA is heading to the mid-terms which means if congress flips to the democrats, then even less can be done by the administration. Any new build F16 deal will need to go into the lame-duck period of the current administration given how long it takes to negotiate a deal which works against any new procurement as well.

It is a flawed policy to tie long term military procurement of new build F16s(or anything infact ) to a small window of opportunity that will in all likelihood be reversed by the democrats. This particular deal may last, but nothing bigger will stand the test of time and change of administration.

The change in relationship between the USA and Pakistan is not strategic in nature as there is no formal policy behind this, just the preferences of Trump as an individual and Pakistan is also being used as leverage in the USA/India negotiations.

Even though India is getting a rough time of it from the USA right now, India has the depth of formal institutional favourable bias garnered through various agreements and treaties towards it, that will always be there and it will be built up when the democrats come back in power, that won't be the case for Pakistan who will get reset to zero. This position is the unfortunate by product of the relationship between Pakistan/USA managed by GHQ who are interested in more short term tactical weapons, rather than politicians who would take a more long term strategic economic view of the relationship and who would try to replicate the formal treaty/agreements approach that India has done successful, for Pakistan also. GHQ always undermines the ability of politicians to replicate this approach by India by offering a cheaper, more accessible and lower cost alternative pathway for the USA to achieve its political goals without long term agreements or commitments as a cost of those agreements. GHQ can and will flip on a dime for the USA, lets not kid ourselves here as we have all seen this repeately .

The Americans are not comfortable to describe any sale of weapons to Pakistan outside the prism of "helping with counter terrorism operations". They don't use this language to define the relationship with India or anyone else for the sale of weapons with those terms. That tells you how the Americans state still view this relationship and how nothing has fundamentally or structurally changed. Even now, the language used for a sale to any other country refers to them as "allies, and strategic interests etc" to articulate those sales. That should tell you how Pakistan has not been able to change the fundamental relationship at a state to state level outside of the language of "terrorism" even now .....

That is why I don't put much stock in the F16V procurement angle suggested by many people. There is too much against that procurement of new builds ever taking place from money, politics, time window etc, no matter how much some would wish it. 2nd hand F16s that it can try and upgrade later, that is more possible if Pakistan acts quickly.
 
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PAF F16s have link-16, but they are the older hardware based low-bandwidth versions, the new terminals are higher bandwidth and software based. It gives more flexibility making the F16s "smarter", and harder to jam being potentially configurable as they are software based.

Yes, the overall package is based around higher bandwidth, lower latency, and enhanced encryption/jam-resistance. Quwa already mentioned the upgrade from Comm 4 to Comm 5 IFF (which is the current NATO standard) - so I'm guessing the new Link-16 terminals are also the current NATO MIDS standard (again pointing towards the V-standard).

However, what I'm actually more interested is in the number of the terminals i.e. 92 and how Pakistan will employ those. Whether all of these terminals will be integrated on the F-16 fleet + ground infrastructure + spares - or can 4 terminals be committed to PN?

In my mind, the Jinnah Class based on MILGEM has the inherent NATO inter-operable architecture, even the CMS is GENESIS derived (which can host Link-16) and Turkey already employs Link-16 on it's select few MILGEM frigates. So in theory, integrating Link-16 on Jinnah Class is more of a software rework for CMS than an engineering hurdle - it can be done - but the main hurdle for taking on such a project would again be US approval.

However, in theory, Jinnah Class speaking to a F-16 directly over Link-16 without an intermediate ground node would provide a redundant situational awareness envelope for joint operations over the sea waters.
 
Yes, the overall package is based around higher bandwidth, lower latency, and enhanced encryption/jam-resistance. Quwa already mentioned the upgrade from Comm 4 to Comm 5 IFF (which is the current NATO standard) - so I'm guessing the new Link-16 terminals are also the current NATO MIDS standard (again pointing towards the V-standard).

However, what I'm actually more interested is in the number of the terminals i.e. 92 and how Pakistan will employ those. Whether all of these terminals will be integrated on the F-16 fleet + ground infrastructure + spares - or can 4 terminals be committed to PN?

In my mind, the Jinnah Class based on MILGEM has the inherent NATO inter-operable architecture, even the CMS is GENESIS derived (which can host Link-16) and Turkey already employs Link-16 on it's select few MILGEM frigates. So in theory, integrating Link-16 on Jinnah Class is more of a software rework for CMS than an engineering hurdle - it can be done - but the main hurdle for taking on such a project would again be US approval.

However, in theory, Jinnah Class speaking to a F-16 directly over Link-16 without an intermediate ground node would provide a redundant situational awareness envelope for joint operations over the sea waters.

More important than putting those datalinks on jcf for example i see is thr need for our MPAs to be able to communicate with all our f-16s effectively. Putting link 16 on sea sultan would be a gamechanger
 
More important than putting those datalinks on jcf for example i see is thr need for our MPAs to be able to communicate with all our f-16s effectively. Putting link 16 on sea sultan would be a gamechanger

Yeah you get the point, if NCW and MDW is the goal, then it's a valid question if some of these Link-16 terminals are going to be integrated on PN assets, or if there are any plans to procure more of these terminals for such an Integration.
 
Btw I forgot to ask earlier but are our f-16s harpoon capable? I dont remember it being one of the listed upgrades but id assume the PAF would request such capability if they are to use f-16s in more maritime roles
 
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Go quickly find a mirror, look at yourself carefully, and remind yourself to communicate with others as equals. Don’t blindly criticize others; suggestions are more effective than blame. This is what I’m teaching you. If you learn it, there’s no need to say thank you. Reducing one arrogant person in the world is my contribution to it.

OMG! You are so off in understanding my quoted message. The name change was a friendly suggestion so that we may quote you more easily because hard to find the characters in your name. That's all!! And I would say same to those two who would use Urdu or Arabic characters--not everyone has those keyboard characters.
As to Japan reference: I was merely pointing out that Japan is a toothless tiger without a powerful military. I also said that China is able to play global power games due to China's mighty military. And if I don't agree with all of the content of your posts sometimes then that is quite common in this forum where people agree and disagree on parts of others' posts.
It is sad that you and I have been on the same side most of our interactions yet you so totally missed what I was trying to say. Peace!
 
OMG! You are so off in understanding my quoted message. The name change was a friendly suggestion so that we may quote you more easily because hard to find the characters in your name. That's all!! And I would say same to those two who would use Urdu or Arabic characters--not everyone has those keyboard characters.
As to Japan reference: I was merely pointing out that Japan is a toothless tiger without a powerful military. I also said that China is able to play global power games due to China's mighty military. And if I don't agree with all of the content of your posts sometimes then that is quite common in this forum where people agree and disagree on parts of others' posts.
It is sad that you and I have been on the same side most of our interactions yet you so totally missed what I was trying to say. Peace!
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Yesterday was a memorial day in China because of the massacres by Japan. So I was a bit emotional, and I apologize to you.
 

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