PAF F-16 | Discussions

dont see how that changes my point

The us doesnt actually care if we use f-16 platform for nuclear delivery after all. In that time period brasstacks couldve gone hot and only nuclear delivery capable aircraft in paf fleet would be called up but us didnt put sanctions on us then or try to stop us. The sanctions and conditions upon which we can use our weapons is entirely dependent on political situation not underlying us policy to not let their platforms be used for nuclear delivery because even today f-16s are capable of nuclear delivery but the us still supports the fleet
 
I think the A5 was primarily intended for nuke delivery, not the F16, after all the Chinese had developed the A5 for that role with it's internal bomb bay, although I think later variants had this removed for a fuel tank instead. Many years ago there were reports of PN adapting the Harpoon for land attack, but this is nonsense as the Harpoon has a land attack mode anyway.
 
China has not placed any restrictions on us using J10CE and JF17Cs for nuclear strike missions. So, that is the way forward for Pakistan, ie China.
which J-10 is configured for nuclear strike?

Why was raad integration onto the JF-17 kept so secret that the photographers who had taken pics had to have their cameras wiped?

If you think China would allow its stamp to be put on Pakistani nuclear delivery...then i dont know what to say. But theres a reason why mirages carried Ra'ad and that the squadrons who inherited J10s, did not inherit ra'ad with them.
 
which J-10 is configured for nuclear strike?

Why was raad integration onto the JF-17 kept so secret that the photographers who had taken pics had to have their cameras wiped?

If you think China would allow its stamp to be put on Pakistani nuclear delivery...then i dont know what to say. But theres a reason why mirages carried Ra'ad and that the squadrons who inherited J10s, did not inherit ra'ad with them.
China gave us M11 missiles that could be used for nukes, as well as A5s. They don't have any issues.
 
which J-10 is configured for nuclear strike?

Are there any restrictions in place by China that directly stop them for being used for nuclear delivery ?

Why was raad integration onto the JF-17 kept so secret that the photographers who had taken pics had to have their cameras wiped?

Nothing unusual there. There was a technical capability that they did not want Indians to be aware of, that seems normal to me. The same secrecy applied to H2/H4 on Mirages for decades, even when H2/H4 were not nuclear delivery platforms.

If you think China would allow its stamp to be put on Pakistani nuclear delivery...then i dont know what to say. But theres a reason why mirages carried Ra'ad and that the squadrons who inherited J10s, did not inherit ra'ad with them.

There has to date been no custom integration done on the J10CEs, they seem to be shrink wrapped J10CEs. Has Pakistan asked for customisation rights, and been rejected or has PAF decided it doesn't want to customise them as it prefers quick delivery both of orders, and war time replacements which become difficult if PAF starts customising them ??
 
because of our behaviour lol.

who tried to use f16's for nuke delivery...

Lets not blame others for our own antics. Nobody, not one country in the world will let us use their assets for nuclear strike.
Okay so we have now the nuke delivery on Mirage and JF. now why US didnt approved any ALCM for our F-16? whats the justification of not offering ALCM for now on our F16s?
Even now India has got SCALP-EG on rafale?
 
Okay so we have now the nuke delivery on Mirage and JF. now why US didnt approved any ALCM for our F-16? whats the justification of not offering ALCM for now on our F16s?
Even now India has got SCALP-EG on rafale?
Forget JASSM, even JSOW would be a great addition for our F-16s. It's a stealthy glide bomb with 130km range and a single F-16 can carry 4 of them. But of course it's never gonna get approved for us for one reason or another.
 
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Our boiis at Quwa are way smarter and graceful then both these Hinduvta clown trolls and they are on national tv. We should also have a dedicated defence channel featuring think tanks and folks like Bilal.
 
Our boiis at Quwa are way smarter and graceful then both these Hinduvta clown trolls and they are on national tv. We should also have a dedicated defence channel featuring think tanks and folks like Bilal.

It was funny to hear them talk about "having taken down an Erieye" and "F16s" in Sindoor.

You would have thought that their professional integrity meant something to them, and they would have decided to utter false made up claims etc...

The only thing they said that was correct, is that the PAF F16s were going to become alot smarter with these upgrades and there was a technical pathway to the D variants of the AMRAAMs with these changes.
 
Lets not blame others for our own antics. Nobody, not one country in the world will let us use their assets for nuclear strike.

So I did the relevant homework to my knee jerk reaction, and here's what I found:

US's FSM/EUM conditions of use upon PAF's F-16 Fleet can be conceptually broken down into 4 Tiers (based on weapons system available to Pakistan):
  1. A2A Weapons (authorized)
  2. Tactical A2S Weapons (authorized)
  3. Conventional Stand-Off / Deep Strike / Maritime Strike Weapons (restricted)
  4. Nuclear Weapons (restricted)
Source - 2006 congressional hearing on F-16 sale to Pakistan. The concerns raised by Congress were related to leakage of US tech to China, China/Pakistan tinkering the F-16 fleet for nuclear delivery and potential subsequent use of it. The DoD representative was clear on how those concerns were already mitigated in the terms and conditions specified in LOA.

Even if nuclear delivery was/is the concern - it doesn't apply to Harpoon missile, here's why:

After studying AGM-84 Harpoon in more depth, this is what I found out:
  1. Harpoon was never designed as a nuclear delivery system.
  2. Its warhead geometry, center-of-gravity constraints, fuzing logic, and structural and thermal limits make nuclear integration impractical per Physics.
  3. Integrating a nuclear warhead would require essentially redesigning the Harpoon, effectively creating a new missile.
  4. For Pakistan, any such modification, even in theory, is already restricted by US FMS/ITAR/EUM contacts.
Trivia: US EAR imposed a similar restriction for Conventional and Nuclear weapons export to India until 2005's 123 Agreement b/w the 2 countries - India began a major defense relation with the US, separated it's civil and military nuclear programs, and ever since has been receiving EAR concessions. Here's a recent example

However, the EAR concessions to India is related to civil nuclear programs and not military. So the restriction on Air Force variant of Harpoon for both Pakistan and India isn't based on the nuclear strike presumption but regulating the operational use case tied to delivery platform so as to maintain the power balance b/w Pakistan and India. Both Pakistan and India employ Harpoon on their naval assets, and if US is to provide airforce variant of Harpoon then it'd be for both countries but India doesn't operate a US aircraft.

Addressing your second assertion, by comparison, other exporters handle restrictions differently than US:
  1. France, similar to US, restricts the export of nuclear delivery systems per national and international laws e.g. French Defence Code, EU Common Position 2008/944/CFSP, MTCR, NPT, NSG, and etc. - and polices any attempt to adapt/integrate domestic nuclear missiles with their aircraft (inferred from the laws mentioned and evident from refusal to share source code for Rafales with India) - However, subject to same laws, prior licensing and approval, France does allows the export of conventional stand-off/deep/maritime strike weapons. And, any conventional weapons system once licensed and sold aren't operationally policed as evident from the use case of SCALP-EG from Dassault aircraft by India.
  2. Russia and China, similar to France, allow the export of conventional stand-off/deep/maritime strike weapons under license and approval, and do not operationally police these systems once sold. Similarly both Russia and China restrict the export of nuclear delivery system, however, there are nuances involved and their restrictions aren't explicit as in the case of the West.
  3. Russia adheres to Wassenaar Arrangement and Federal Law No. 183-FZ (Military-Technical Cooperation), and doesn't sell any nuclear delivery system itself but also doesn't restrict cooperation as evident from use case of BrahMos (dual capable) with Sukhoi aircraft. BrahMos is an India-Russia joint development, both countries acknowledge its dual capability, yet Russia helped India on BrahMos's integration on Sukhoi by sharing the architectural source code of the aircraft. So in practice, Russia is showing "no concern" if not implicitly permitting the use of its aircraft for nuclear strike.
  4. Similar to Russia, China has recently reinforced it's export laws concerning the dual-use materials (source) However, JF-17 is a joint development of Pakistan/China and being adapted (if not already) for nuclear delivery system (for Pakistan). Moreover, though the authorized level of integration on J-10CE is not publicly disclosed, it's not operationally policed by China (at least on offensive roles and A2A strikes as evident from use case in May 2025).
So contrary to your earlier assertion Russia and China are already showing least concern and implicitly permitting their systems to be used for nuclear delivery in practice (albeit project specific) in contrast to the West.

And yes, the US places Pakistan’s F-16s in a strict operational straightjacket (as described by @Ali_Baba), this restriction is more directed at operational control, maintaining the regional power balance, and keeping the escalation ladder b/w Pakistan and India in check for US supplied systems - rather than a direct restriction only concerning nuclear strike capability of either. Hence, all the more reason to transition from US systems to alternatives such as Chinese platforms, especially as India benefits from French and Russian support for advanced tech and delivery systems.

Note:
not an argument against the capability of F-16 but rather highlighting the restrictions it comes with.

@Ibbi32
 
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