PAF F-16 | Discussions

[puttputt]

100% agreed.

Real intelligent indians, which are few, know that PAF has absolute mastery over multi domain now and used IAF's best fighters as target practice to refine even more. Imagine the amount of tactical data PAF took away that night.......from electronic signatures to knowing own strengths and weaknesses...what worked and what not worked....what was expected to work and what did not.......... Meanwhile what did IAF manage to take? Am pretty sure they couldn't collect enough data on PL15 or J-10s.

The reality is, F-16s even with AIM C5s are equal or better than anything in their fleet except for Rafales. V standard just ensures that PAF has 3 types of fighters that can kill their current and future F4 rafales.

IAF's doctrine just got easier.......don't bother flying AA combat. Just focus on swarm ALCM attacks. No chance they will be flying within 200km of the Pakistan border. Zero chance. And this also solves AD problem for Pakistan.....the longer ranged ALCMs they need to use and fire far away from border....gives our AD assets more time to pick them up.

The next big race is for UCAVs, both fighter-equivalents (Kizilelma) and smaller, cheaper attritable platforms. Baykar's making it really clear to the PAF that it can act on a fighter-equivalent sooner rather than later. I suspect that a domestic program and a Chinese option are competing for the attritable side of the equation.

Aside from the 'wow' factor of flying a stealth fighter, the PAF won't be able to scale the J-35AE into a meaningful force capacity for many years after inducting the first lot. The integration process for those is likely at least 7-10 years out from initial induction, so we're talking of 2040+ timeframes.

Hence, really good 4.5+ or '5-minus' fighters will be required to continue phasing out old platforms in the meantime, and those old platforms are not just F-7P/PGs and Mirage III/5s, but F-16A/Bs too.

The F-16A/Bs still serve a very critical role in the PAF force structure, esp., as the spear-tip (with, remarkably, Mirage ROSE-II/IIIs). J-10CEs are solid in the air-to-air role, 100%, and would help the PAF shore up numbers in the medium-weight category at a reasonable cost. But the big question mark, that still persists, is the absence of a strike platform.

Perhaps the idea now could be to skip the stirke platform and, instead, lean in on the Kizilelma. Or, now knowing that the Turks will be able to not only integrate their SOWs to the Typhoon, but can re-export that same config with weapons to other users, the Eurofighter can be that strike option @Oscar ?

 

[Falcon26]

France confirms India’s interest in Rafale F5, potential first export customer​

December 2, 2025​

@Khanivore @Corax @hasssanali8998 @r3alist @Ak01 @hnn @Ali_Baba @rafale

Although off topic, this will surely effect how our tacticians plan

The way the French are milking the Indians, I don’t even think my uncle milks his cows as well.

 

[Ibbi32]

The way the French are milking the Indians, I don’t even think my uncle milks his cows as well.

Dassault celebrates as if their production isnt effectively backed upto 2040 now

 

[hnn]

I doubt Turkey would enable the integration of any subsystems and munitions, except their own.

I doubt US would approve Ozgur sale to Pakistan in the first place. I'll have to study the US-Turkey contract over the Ozgur modification to know if sale of those F-16s outside Turkey is even allowed. However, you get the idea, it's a political question, both at US's and Turkey's end. The switch to MGB/OFP stack however was done precisely to lower the US software dependency. So integrating Chinese/Pakistani weapons on Ozgur is more of an engineering/political choice and is not hard blocked by default (as is practiced by US)

AFAIK, Ozgur mod wasn't undertaken from a third-party sale goal in mind at Turkey's end but I'll have to study the contract to be sure.

 

[rafale]

I think Oscar and other members have rightly stated that abandoning F-16s entirely is just a stupid decision and waste of money in the long term as opposed to upfront capital and revenue expenditures expected to be incurred on new systems with the upgrade V Kits.


Yes, Pakistan has demonstrated that it is not dependent on USA anymore for front line attack jets........but here is the question......What does the USA gain by NOT allowing these V upgrades to Pakistan?

They don't gain anything. In fact, they lose more in a partner who you never know, might be needed in the regional context. That price alone is worth a few billion USD worth of upgrades and crying from the bhindians.

It might be Iran, it might be Afghanistan again or central Asia.....Pakistan is a strong regional partner here.

 

[puttputt]

I think Oscar and other members have rightly stated that abandoning F-16s entirely is just a stupid decision and waste of money in the long term as opposed to upfront capital and revenue expenditures expected to be incurred on new systems with the upgrade V Kits.


Yes, Pakistan has demonstrated that it is not dependent on USA anymore for front line attack jets........but here is the question......What does the USA gain by NOT allowing these V upgrades to Pakistan?

They don't gain anything. In fact, they lose more in a partner who you never know, might be needed in the regional context. That price alone is worth a few billion USD worth of upgrades and crying from the bhindians.

It might be Iran, it might be Afghanistan again or central Asia.....Pakistan is a strong regional partner here.

US strategy in South Asia will adjust to ensure that Pakistan has enough of a stick to slap India in line (to focus on China), but not utterly defeat India in an all-out war -- basically, minimum viable deterrence.

That minimum viable deterrence will likely involve a package of F-16s (new and V-kits) with a solid A2A focus (but limited-to-none A2G) and medium-range SAMs (NASAMS / SL-AMRAAM).

 

[rafale]

US strategy in South Asia will adjust to ensure that Pakistan has enough of a stick to slap India in line (to focus on China), but not utterly defeat India in an all-out war -- basically, minimum viable deterrence.

That minimum viable deterrence will likely involve a package of F-16s (new and V-kits) with a solid A2A focus (but limited-to-none A2G) and medium-range SAMs (NASAMS / SL-AMRAAM).

I agree partially with your post....i think Pakistan will keep at it with F-16s upgrades and maybe new builds.......additional Surveillance radars TPS series and that's it.

Won't go for SAMs from USA.....as you already have a capable systems integrated in your IADS. For air defense its not the systems or quality that is lacking but rather the quantity and posture that the current quantity can provide at any given time. Even if you need low-medium range SAMs, why not go for already procured CAMM-ER or even CAMM-MRs from Europe? Or IRIS from Germany?

 

[Ak01]

I agree partially with your post....i think Pakistan will keep at it with F-16s upgrades and maybe new builds.......additional Surveillance radars TPS series and that's it.

Won't go for SAMs from USA.....as you already have a capable systems integrated in your IADS. For air defense its not the systems or quality that is lacking but rather the quantity and posture that the current quantity can provide at any given time. Even if you need low-medium range SAMs, why not go for already procured CAMM-ER or even CAMM-MRs from Europe? Or IRIS from Germany?

for the paf tho, slamraam would be the easiest option to absorb of them all.

 

[Ibbi32]

for the paf tho, slamraam would be the easiest option to absorb of them all.

Isnt paf moving for SL-Faaz?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Isnt paf moving for SL-Faaz?

SL-FAAZ is vapourware? ie cancelled in leui of working with Türkiye on long ramge AAMs.

 

[rafale]

for the paf tho, slamraam would be the easiest option to absorb of them all.

to reuse existing stock of AIM 120s?

But what niche does it fill that current systems don't or other European CAMM ones can't?

 

[Ak01]

to reuse existing stock of AIM 120s?

But what niche does it fill that current systems don't or other European CAMM ones can't?

but thats the point, you dont need to induct a new system, it fills the same niche that the other european ones fill, but we just have more experience with it. Though, it is probably less capable

 

[Ak01]

Isnt paf moving for SL-Faaz?

SL-FAAZ is vapourware? ie cancelled in leui of working with Türkiye on long ramge AAMs.

Both of these are probably vapourwave tbh, we havent seen any new progress on much for example, yet pac had a jf17 export poster with faaz on it (sd10), its probably just another one of those trillion press projects we sign.

Like CPEC SEZ for 5th gen fighter design and coproduction, or PAF+CETC AEW development jointly, anka aerostructures at PAC...etc...

 

[puttputt]

Both of these are probably vapourwave tbh, we havent seen any new progress on much for example, yet pac had a jf17 export poster with faaz on it (sd10), its probably just another one of those trillion press projects we sign.

Like CPEC SEZ for 5th gen fighter design and coproduction, or PAF+CETC AEW development jointly, anka aerostructures at PAC...etc...

FAAZ-1 could amount to something if it's a straight-up license-built SD-10.

The PAF needs a low-cost short-to-medium-range SAM, and the SD-10 platform is a pretty good get -- if we're able to manufacture it locally.

It's a shame we didn't just ask for the Aspide platform full ToT when we bought the Spada 2000. Could've built upgraded SAMs at home (using an active radar homing seeker) for the Army (instead of the LY-80) and to give a PAF an at-home SL-AMRAAM-type system.

 

[hasssanali8998]

SAMs at home

any updates on our SAM situation