PAF F-16 | Discussions

[rafale]

bindia does not want a long, drawn-out war, as it does not suit them economically....
So till the end aug we will be experiencing monsoon n if the pre-monsoon/ early monsoon rains are anything to go by, then this year's monsoon season will be heavy. With all big and small rivers bursting at the seams, even small rivines are resembling rivers.
in military terms, there is no chance for any large "maneuvers" . Even infinity maneuvers would be difficult, let alone large armor/mechanized.

So an opportunity for bindia to carry out a large-scale naval/air opp.

Or maybe to keep PAF, PA and PN in combat posture to drain resources.........continuous patrolling of the skies and and seas consumes fuel....which is expensive and not really infinitely budget.

PAF was able to pick their 72 ship formation that night because it had assets in the air 24/7. You can't continue doing that for months.....planes need fuel and maintenance the more they are used....

But yea, i will not completely lay the guard down....these absolute vile bhindians can do anything....do another false flag on the scale of parliament attacks or mumbai.......

 

[Ali_Baba]

Rumours are afloat that India is preparing for round 2.
India may start again in a desperate effort to try and cover the humiliation but how it end only PAF will decide :

View attachment 132593

Pakistan, and the PAF need to lose this concept of "restraint" and of offering the ability to India to make the "first" strike, which only complicates its ability to respond and presents even greater risk to the people of the PAF who will have to conduct those operations of response.

Pre-emption is possible if a clear, credible and immediate threat exists, and one that can be actioned on without need an active hostile action.

India will mostly likely start the next round with Brahmos strikes across multiple locations with tens to hundreds of missiles launched. It is a clear issue for Pakistan interms of airspace defence of its bases and an advantage that the IAF currently posses.

Lets see - but PAFs restrained approach itself is a weakness that can be exploited if pressure against the PAF is applied quickly enough that it moves faster than the intellectualisation of the conflicts decision making cycle of the usual what is the right 'tit-for-tat' response that we see so often.

Appreciate everyone here is very 'gun-ho' about the PAF ability based on previous results, but with each round, PAF exposes its secrets and life gets harder for the PAF and the IAF learns its mistakes and corrects them. Pakistan / PAF have to be more far more focussed on actively degrading the IAF and India's capability to cause mischief while it has an advantage, rather than following its tit-for-tat approach.

The concept of tit-for-tar must be an Asian cultural thing, having been born and brought up in the UK i have seen how "white" people fight both approach and fight their wars, and those wars/fights are "all out no holes barred approach". So, seeing Iran and Pakistan follow this constrained approach that attempts to hide what is a brutal activity behind reason, logic and calibration is very odd and confusing.

We have seen in the 12 day war, how important it is to have an explosive-fast application of airpower to know out the opponents ability to respond, or co-ordinate their actions. The hesitation that PAF shows can be used to knock out large parts of the force while people intellectualise an "appropriate response".

If India starts to do something again, the PAF has to go for the kill shot. Right for the Juglar vein. All out, take out the IAF while you have a military advantage.

I think I have said enough ....

 

[Yasser76]

Pakistan, and the PAF need to lose this concept of "restraint" and of offering the ability to India to make the "first" strike, which only complicates its ability to respond.

Pre-emption is possible if a clear, credible and immediate threat exists, and one that can be actioned on without need an active hostile action.

India will mostly likely start the next round with Brahmos strikes across multiple locations with tens to hundreds of missiles launched. It is a clear issue for Pakistan interms of airspace defence of its bases and an advantage that the IAF currently posses.

Lets see - but PAFs restrained approach itself is a weakness that can be exploited if pressure against the PAF is applied quickly enough that moves faster than the intellectualisation of the conflict decision making cycle of tit-for-tat that we see so often.

Appreciate everyone here is very 'gun-ho' about the PAF ability based on previous results, but with each round, PAF exposes its secrets and life gets harder for the PAF and the IAF learns its mistakes and corrects them. Pakistan / PAF have to be more far more focussed on actively degrading the IAF and India's capability to cause mischief while it has an advantage, rather than following its tit-for-tat approach.

The concept of tit-for-tar must be an Asian cultural thing, having been born and brought up in the UK i have seen how "white" people fight both approach and fight their wars, and those wars/fights are "all out no holes barred approach". So, seeing Iran and Pakistan follow this constrained approach that attempts to hide what is a brutal activity behind reason, logic and calibration is very odd and confusing.

We have seen in the 12 day war, how important it is to have an explosive-fast application of airpower to know out the opponents ability to respond, or co-ordinate their actions. The hesitation that PAF shows can be used to knock out large parts of the force while people intellectualise an "appropriate response".

If India starts to do something again, the PAF has to go for the kill shot. Right for the Juglar vein. All out, take out the IAF while you have a military advantage.

I think I have said enough ....

100% agree, but this cannot be done by PAF alone.

Navy and Army can help in so many ways.

 

[PakistaniDefender]

Vipers are good in a SEAD/DEAD

What weapons they have for this role?

 

[frontline360news]

For a long time PAF Vipers were tip of the spear. That era has officially ended in 2021-22.

Today is the age of long range BVRs, HOBS missiles, AESA radars and air to ground Stand off weapons / CMs. PAF Vipers have none of those. Vipers are still a great machines only for the countries who have access to latest weapons like AIM120-D, Aim 9X and SOWs for it.

Unlike Mirages, which we could use for a long time and make a utility for them, We will not be able to do the same with Vipers. We cannot and will not be allowed to integrate our own SOWs for strike missions just like we were able to do with Mirages. Secondly, mirages were dirt cheap to operate & maintain, with full overhaul / rebuild features in-house. But for Vipers, we pay a hefty amount to the US for its maintenance & monitoring package.

Vipers served well in PAF and will continue to serve as a second tier (behind 4.5 & 5th gen fighters). Its time we should be looking beyond them and just remove any thoughts for acquiring any further of them either Iraqis or new ones. There's absolutely no long term utility for these in PAF.

Pakistan has limited options.

1. Add more JF-17 block3 (might have to wait after Azerbaijan order)
2. Add more J-10C
3. Wait for J-35A (most likely available for export in 2027)
4. Used F-16 from Iraq might be expensive after upgrade

Pakistan might go ahead and get the upgrade package for Pakistani F-16s. Let see what comes out of the meeting.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistan has limited options.

1. Add more JF-17 block3 (might have to wait after Azerbaijan order)
2. Add more J-10C
3. Wait for J-35A (most likely available for export in 2027)
4. Used F-16 from Iraq might be expensive after upgrade

Pakistan might go ahead and get the upgrade package for Pakistani F-16s. Let see what comes out of the meeting.

Given the threats that Pakistan now faces, I cant see PAF want to lose its current F16 Block 52+ from the front line, waiting for upgrades to be completed. PAF security problems have gone up, there is a clear and present danger to Pakistan's from India. I think we will see some level of increase in the size of the PAF before any upgrades are considered.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Focus should be on

• J10C (1 extra Squadrons ,18 Units)
• J35 (3 Squadrons , 54 Units)

F16 C/D upgrade should be done after attainment of J10C and J35
If need exist , Refreshing of 70 planes , 1 Squadron at time

 

[Irfan Baloch]

stories of F-16 offers from America are strange. they are capable platform and PAF leadership both retired and serving is madly in love with this most successful platform but it goes against common sense to enter in a large military procurement with America rather than keeping it to modest repairs and supplies of existing fleet.

on one hand we are prevented to buy super Cobra (thanks to Hussain Haqqani efforts together with Indian lobby) and face ITAR and cant buy T-129 Helicopters from Turkey
but still fancy the possibilities of more F-16 jets is beyond my comprehension. Ignoring the Indian moronic claim of those F-16s not being allowed against India, even then this doesn't make sense to commit funds for F-16s given number of times Americans have broken the deal and kept the money as well

I hope there is no truth in new jets procurement and these are just youtubers cheap fantascies.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

stories of F-16 offers from America are strange. they are capable platform and PAF leadership both retired and serving is madly in love with this most successful platform but it goes against common sense to enter in a large military procurement with America rather than keeping it to modest repairs and supplies of existing fleet.

on one hand we are prevented to buy super Cobra (thanks to Hussain Haqqani efforts together with Indian lobby) and face ITAR and cant buy T-129 Helicopters from Turkey
but still fancy the possibilities of more F-16 jets is beyond my comprehension. Ignoring the Indian moronic claim of those F-16s not being allowed against India, even then this doesn't make sense to commit funds for F-16s given number of times Americans have broken the deal and kept the money as well

I hope there is no truth in new jets procurement and these are just youtubers cheap fantascies.

OTOH President Trump believes in deals that make top $s. If he's really after rare earth minerals in Pakistan to decouple their supply chain from China the way decoupling from Taiwan/China is being done in semiconductor IC fabrication (being a veteran of 3+ decades in this field I can assure the amount of the US pressure is dead immense) then he'd want Pak to do something in reciprocal. What are more graded than F16s as a gold standard for the mutual transactions?

 

[Yasser76]

stories of F-16 offers from America are strange. they are capable platform and PAF leadership both retired and serving is madly in love with this most successful platform but it goes against common sense to enter in a large military procurement with America rather than keeping it to modest repairs and supplies of existing fleet.

on one hand we are prevented to buy super Cobra (thanks to Hussain Haqqani efforts together with Indian lobby) and face ITAR and cant buy T-129 Helicopters from Turkey
but still fancy the possibilities of more F-16 jets is beyond my comprehension. Ignoring the Indian moronic claim of those F-16s not being allowed against India, even then this doesn't make sense to commit funds for F-16s given number of times Americans have broken the deal and kept the money as well

I hope there is no truth in new jets procurement and these are just youtubers cheap fantascies.

I think you may underestimate how the geopoltical landscape has changed. We are in a transcational phase now. Granted that may change with a new administration, but keeping F-16s modernised (if we can do it a lower cost) is money well spent

 

[Rational Philosopher]

The main value in upgrading the F-16s will be access to US air force exercises (latest tactical exposure, China is likely behind in this area with the US having a significant lead).

I'd love a heavy strike platform but we have to be serious here and analyse our budget. We don't have an infinite budget we aren't running on copium here.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The main value in upgrading the F-16s will be access to US air force exercises (latest tactical exposure, China is likely behind in this area with the US having a significant lead).

I'd love a heavy strike platform but we have to be serious here and analyse our budget. We don't have an infinite budget we aren't running on copium here.

thanks for reminding me that PAF on few occasions was prevented even from participating in Red flag and now fancying the chance of F-16 Block 70 just because a Transactional president in America likes our rare earth resources but he can contradict and take a U turn in the same sitting.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I think you may underestimate how the geopoltical landscape has changed. We are in a transcational phase now. Granted that may change with a new administration, but keeping F-16s modernised (if we can do it a lower cost) is money well spent

I hear you. issue is American reliability and their dependence on India to counter China. this issue makes the possibility of military equipment trade with Pakistan against American strategic planning since Pakistan will use these weapons against India.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Vipers are useless
Even though I was originally of the idea to get Turkish updates on them and relegate them to a SEAD/DEAD role

Better to invest more in JF-17s and J-10Cs

It seems like Mr. Trump may have offered something significant to Pakistan, but the primary hurdle appears to be funding. The big question is whether the U.S. will actually release the $10–12 billion it reportedly owes Pakistan for its support in the Afghanistan campaign.
Interestingly, some retired military officials, now frequent commentators on TV channels, have alluded to this development, though they’ve refrained from sharing specific details.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

It seems like Mr. Trump may have offered something significant to Pakistan, but the primary hurdle appears to be funding. The big question is whether the U.S. will actually release the $10–12 billion it reportedly owes Pakistan for its support in the Afghanistan campaign.
Interestingly, some retired military officials, now frequent commentators on TV channels, have alluded to this development, though they’ve refrained from sharing specific details.

Pakistani Establishment appears to be divided, with an estimated 40/60 tilt between pro-Western and pro-China orientations. As a result, Pakistan is expected to pursue acquisition of the latest F-16 block and upgrades for its existing fleet, provided that the necessary funding can be arranged. Not sure what role Saudi and Turkey can play in it.