PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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Ali_Baba said:
Reading your reply, I am quite certain I understand the logic of design, engineering, manufacturing pipelines of a platform much better than you it seems.

Right now, Pakistan does not have the manufacturing infrastructure to build all the various part of the JF17 airframe in Pakistan. It can fully assemble the JF17C jet but not fully manufacture the airframe, so 'assembling' a J10CE adds nothing to Pakistan industrial capabilities that it does not already know how to do as of now. Setting up a J10CE assembly line in Pakistan would therefore be a waste of both time and money without adding anything new in industrial capabilities. If Pakistan needs to increase its military capabilities via the J10CE, then simply buy off the shelf from China, it is a lot cheaper. It can continue to try and grow its industrial aviation capabilities via the JF17/PFX programme.

Right now, Pakistan only has the machining and tooling capability to build a portion of the airframe for the JF17. The complicated pressing tools required to manufacture the stress load critical parts of the JF17C are still made in China and then shipped to Pakistan for final assembly. Pakistan needs to get that manufacturing capability, and it needs to do that by buying the remaining tooling for from China and then setting up the manufacturing pipeline for those parts. PAF officials have gone to China to acquire the clearances required for that tooling to be exported to Pakistan in the last few months. If you had kept up to date and read the various threads on this forum, you would know that already.

You have therefore completely missed the point of needing to have infrastructure, people and processes and procedures in place so that you "can programme a machine to produce some random part" and the most efficient place to do that is the JF17C platform. That is what the PFX programme should bring to Pakistan. J10CE assembly line wont do that, the PFX programme will. Once you have that in place, you can then reuse that on new projects which is exactly what PFX will bring to the table.

The next programme after that manufacturing pipeline has been setup should be to design and manufacture something like a UCAV like the Boeing MQ-28 Ghost Bat(or the many clones of that now being floated around the world as ideas) in Pakistan using Pakistani technology.

The goal is build an indigenous manufacturing capability in Pakistan in the most effective and efficient manner as a function of both time, and money.
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I honestly don't know how to continue this discussion. You are contradicting your own statements.
- In one place, you were saying J-10C (previous posts) and other things were "too advanced" for Pakistan. It couldn't handle those. Here, you are saying adding J-10C doesn't bring anything new to Pakistan so why even do it? These are 100% opposite statements. May want to pick a side first and we can debate that.

- You stated here that J-10C is better off being bought off shelf. You do realize that there are over 250 Mirages and F-7's needing URGENT retirement? This was a slower process before, but since the May war and mass deployment of S-400 in coming months, its become urgent because these planes are like sitting ducks. So let's say we acquire 100 (at a minimum) J-10C's.......we'll need proper setup like MRO depot level. Engine overhaul, etc. So when you'll acquire a big portion of these capabilities and sort of limited TOT, then might as well as get assembly line also. Because its all computer programmed. But we'll save a couple billions of dollars AND assemble and maintain these locally. That's just common sense.
 
Michael said:
Do you mean 100% local manufacturing? (Except engines)

In the Chinese perception, local manufacturing means that the local manufacturing rate of the product, from raw materials to the final product, is at least 80%. ------ Focus: Starting from raw materials......

If we use this standard to measure the local manufacturing rate of JF-17......
I don't think Pakistan has any real intention to increase the local manufacturing rate of JF-17. (Political propaganda slogans are not in the scope of discussion.)
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Chinese perception is one of a kind in the whole world.

No country can compare to china so it’s not a good idea to compare Pak manufacturing to that of chinese.
 
RajaBaja said:
Right, but not with Russian WD engines though. With say WS-X with 30% more thrust to weight, I agree, it would be in Gripen or up to F-16 block 52 price category.
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Hi,

We just found out that the T to W is a worthless commodity per say ( you still need a capable engine but it is not a life and death option )---. It is just for show---.
 
MastanKhan said:
Hi,

We just found out that the T to W is a worthless commodity per say ( you still need a capable engine but it is not a life and death option )---. It is just for show---.
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Hi,

The speed is an issue with full loadout........ if we just take the ability to launch PL-15's, that can happen from the ground also. But for price to go apples to apples like Gripen or F-16 block 52, the speed needs to rise with full loadout. I've read this assessment more than a few places actually.
 
RajaBaja said:
Hi,

The speed is an issue with full loadout........ if we just take the ability to launch PL-15's, that can happen from the ground also. But for price to go apples to apples like Gripen or F-16 block 52, the speed needs to rise with full loadout. I've read this assessment more than a few places actually.
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Hi,

What is 'full load out'---?
 
RajaBaja said:
I honestly don't know how to continue this discussion. You are contradicting your own statements.
- In one place, you were saying J-10C (previous posts) and other things were "too advanced" for Pakistan. It couldn't handle those. Here, you are saying adding J-10C doesn't bring anything new to Pakistan so why
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Show me where i said it was too advanced? My point was and is, and has remained consistent. i.e. any assembly or part manufacture of J10CE in Pakistan is a pointless exercise given the increase in costs that will bring to build that manufacturing and assembly pipeline in Pakistan versus what is already a streamlined and efficient manufacturing and assembly pipeline in China that already has the trained people in place for the J10CE.

RajaBaja said:
even do it? These are 100% opposite statements. May want to pick a side first and we can debate that.
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Show me where I have said, what you allude to ? Where have i been contradictory?

RajaBaja said:
- You stated here that J-10C is better off being bought off shelf. You do realize that there are over 250 Mirages and F-7's needing URGENT retirement? This was a slower process before, but since the May war and mass deployment of S-400 in coming months, its become urgent because these planes are like sitting ducks. So let's say we acquire 100 (at a minimum) J-10C's.......we'll need proper setup like MRO depot level. Engine overhaul, etc. So when you'll acquire a big portion of these capabilities and sort of limited TOT, then might as well as get assembly line also.
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There is no possibility by which a locally assembled, or part manufactured and assembled J10CE will ever be cheaper than off the shelf procurement from China. How can it be ? Please explain why you think it can be.

RajaBaja said:
Because its all computer programmed. But we'll save a couple billions of dollars AND assemble and maintain these locally. That's just common sense.
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The bulk of the cost of a modern jet is the engine, avionics and systems that you will still have to procure from China for something like the J10CE. What is left is airframe manufacturing and final assembly. Explain how the cost of setting up that in Pakistan and averaging that out will produce a product that will be cheaper than direct purchase of the platform??

Exactly how many people do you think are working at PAC, that you think the difference in labour costs will "save billions of dollars" for the 'components' that will be manufactured in Pakistan ?? I don't understand why you are struggling with the basic concepts of the economics of manufacturing and financial efficiency.
 
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RajaBaja said:
What do you think AZM and PFX were trying to accomplish? And what's the outcome of PFX-Alpha and later a 5th gen platform? These are based on JF-17 buddy.....

Now if I were to do it, I'd go the J-10C route and create a stealthy canard smaller brother of J-20. That seems economical, industry gets matured and we get top end capability both for 4.5 gen J-10C and 5th gen future version.
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Reality is that we don't have resources and expertise to develop 5th or semi stealth our self .. that's way project Azm do not materialize,.....
instead PAF make intelligent decision to go for J35 and possibly KAAN combo ...

Do not continue foolish effort like Tajas...

On other hand we may get some output with Chinese help on PFX (some advance JFT 17) version...
 
RafaleSlayer said:
confidential info, will never come out in public domain until and unless the missiles are actually used in combat
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Most probably its remain confidential....

But if J10 can support and carry PL17s may be limited numbers.... Will be game changer.. then no need of twin larger frames at all
 
MastanKhan said:
Hi,

Look at it this way---if the J20 is a canard design stealth---then why do we need to invest in the J10---.

Basically a stealth J10 is known as a J20 for simplicity sake---.

Someone has already invested heavily
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Agrees ... Then we can wait once we can afford them and they are available for expert (once china induct 6th generation) ...
 
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