PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Ak01]

Brother i will never ask of you to disclose anything that can brought you in trouble. i always ask question where if you can answer in generic terms not be specific like if i ask that WS-19 definitely would have better electricty production and thrust than WS-21 with same fuel consumption? you can answer maybe or yes or maybe not or i am not sure.. dont need to be specific liek yes and this much more electricity and thrust etc. but thanks i tagged you here because now i understand more when you say that current JF-17 airframe design has almost reached its optimal state

for what its worth, i think we tend to focus on the wrong area for JF-17 radar performance.

You can pump ALLLL the electricity you want into it, heck, pack it full with the most powerful radar in the world, but you cannot beat the inability to effectively cool the radar!

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

But, im guessing these are still optimised for high level flight, especially when you consider the density of air down low, the volume of air being compressed would be insane, like, explosively insane... Structurally, that cant be great for the missile and it would probably be red glowing hot with all that friction!

But the issue of air density is the key one, the thicker that air, the more friction/drag, at hypersonic speeds, its increasing exponentially (by the square of mach 6), it would be an insane amount.

You correctly understood my question. that is the answer i wanted in bold. your answer makes sense. I didnt know that before. Thank you for your time.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

One of the core tasks for China's fighter jet power systems, both now and for many years to come, is to improve their power generation capabilities.

These are Yang Wei's exact words. You should know who he is.

if you switch to the newer generation of jets engine and please do that quickly so that we get WS-19 and WS-15 from you

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

@Ak01 I have two more questions and correct me if i am wrong.

Question 1: From what you've explained so far, I understand that high altitude is essential for maintaining a missile's high speed and preventing a significant loss in range. However, if the missile is a subsonic cruise missile—like Pakistan's Taimoor or the SCALP/Storm Shadow—would it still be necessary for the launching aircraft to climb to high altitude before release? Even if the range is slightly reduced at lower altitudes, these missiles don't require high speed since they cruise subsonically. Wouldn't launching them low help keep the aircraft safer from enemy air defenses? For example, India's supersonic BrahMos forces the carrier aircraft (like the Su-30MKI) to expose itself more to Pakistani air defenses, whereas their subsonic SCALP-EG is harder to detect and intercept partly because it can be launched from lower altitudes. Am I understanding this correctly?


Question 2: Is it feasible to develop a small, short-range interceptor similar to a MANPADS but designed specifically against low-flying cruise missiles? In scenarios where the enemy uses terrain masking and flies missiles through valleys or mapped routes at very low altitude, could we position soldiers equipped with such portable interceptors manually along those paths to shoot down many incoming missiles? In open plain areas, radars would detect them more easily anyway, but in mountainous or complex terrain, wouldn't this kind of low-tech, distributed defense provide a significant boost against low-flying cruise missiles and aircraft? I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.

 

[Ak01]

@Ak01 I have two more questions and correct me if i am wrong.

Question 1: From what you've explained so far, I understand that high altitude is essential for maintaining a missile's high speed and preventing a significant loss in range. However, if the missile is a subsonic cruise missile—like Pakistan's Taimoor or the SCALP/Storm Shadow—would it still be necessary for the launching aircraft to climb to high altitude before release? Even if the range is slightly reduced at lower altitudes, these missiles don't require high speed since they cruise subsonically. Wouldn't launching them low help keep the aircraft safer from enemy air defenses? For example, India's supersonic BrahMos forces the carrier aircraft (like the Su-30MKI) to expose itself more to Pakistani air defenses, whereas their subsonic SCALP-EG is harder to detect and intercept partly because it can be launched from lower altitudes. Am I understanding this correctly?

@JamD had a write up somewhere on this but, Turbojets are wildly inefficient at low altitudes. Our cruise missiles likely rely on turbojet engines, not great ones either. Ill leave this question to him to answer because my knowledge on this is not as in depth as his.

On the second half of the question, we can launch them wherever- hence why we can do surface launches, but they wont stay that low, particularly to extend their reach to their max ranges. You will find them struggling with their efficiency due to a mix of factors, drag, thermals, engine performance, but theres also another reason why we may not be able to have super low flying cruise missiles- and thats the guidance stack (something which Taimoor IR could fix)- but again, this is a question for @JamD

Question 2: Is it feasible to develop a small, short-range interceptor similar to a MANPADS but designed specifically against low-flying cruise missiles? In scenarios where the enemy uses terrain masking and flies missiles through valleys or mapped routes at very low altitude, could we position soldiers equipped with such portable interceptors manually along those paths to shoot down many incoming missiles? In open plain areas, radars would detect them more easily anyway, but in mountainous or complex terrain, wouldn't this kind of low-tech, distributed defense provide a significant boost against low-flying cruise missiles and aircraft? I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Ukrainians are using manpads to intercept cruise missiles. Problem is, you have to be bloody good to hit anything super fast moving like a cruise missile, particularly low flying ones.

Also, the problem is always detection, and also distribution, are you going to have a soldier every few hundred meters with manpads to intercept something that may come its way? Will it be a qra force etc?

I think fighter jets are an ideal solution to cruise missile threat, particularly in our theatre, GBAD has many limitations, i do wonder, if we had optimised our fighter radars to be able to detect BrahMos and other Cruise missiles, we could come up with a more optmisied aam for this kind of threat to intercept them. This is a very brief write up, but ive got a few more in depth thoughts on such a concept (which isnt new), but ill put them up later. https://militarnyi.com/en/news/part...rules-to-the-realities-of-the-war-in-ukraine/ Something alot more optimised though

 

[AeronautIR]

Also, the F model saw both wars so must have been lost in higher numbers leaving fewer airframes. Mostly F models were also abandoned in former East Pakistan. Did E models also serve from East Pakistan??

I asked Usman bhai and he told me that there are many F models as gate guards. Many of them are preserved in PAF museum also.

 

[White Privilege]

I asked Usman bhai and he told me that there are many F models as gate guards. Many of them are preserved in PAF museum also.

Where is this Indian Ouragan now, not in the Museum.....

 

[AeronautIR]

Where is this Indian Ouragan now, not in the Museum.....
View attachment 170590

Its condition was not like the Gnat that landed at Pasrur. It didn't stay intact and had to be scrapped.
I am not sure whether it could have been preserved or not.

 

[PakAl]

I have a dream: to travel around the world!
When I have enough time, I don't have enough money.
When I save up enough money, I don't have enough time.

Haha true.
But for paf J10CE, Jf17s, F16s are already inducted. J35s will come soon, the only question mark is Kaan, will Pakistan be inducting 2 5th generation planes when most nations except the superpowers are only inducting 1 type of 5th generation due to the costs. If paf believes J35 is more than enough and we dont need Kaans then its possible we only stick with one although paf long term goal is to have a plane where we can add own missiles, radars, avionics etc.

 

[Jango007]

I asked Usman bhai and he told me that there are many F models as gate guards. Many of them are preserved in PAF museum also.

My patient from Bangladesh lived in Dhaka …. He once showed me pics of Dhaka near airport area and there was clearly a wreckage of F86 in his pic .

What a proud story PAF wrote against absolutely crazy odds of 1 against 10….

 

[AeronautIR]

My patient from Bangladesh lived in Dhaka …. He once showed me pics of Dhaka near airport area and there was clearly a wreckage of F86 in his pic .

What a proud story PAF wrote against absolutely crazy odds of 1 against 10….

Indeed, 1 sqn with 14 aircraft against 10 complete fighter squadrons, and yet IAF lost 8 aircraft vs 3 PAF Sabers downed on 4th Dec. Rest of the aircraft were grounded after runway was destroyed.

 

[Oscar]

I asked Usman bhai and he told me that there are many F models as gate guards. Many of them are preserved in PAF museum also.

If I am not mistaken there was one put on the roundabout off DHA and Korangi in Karachi before it was taken out because of both city neglect and public abuse.

 

[Khanivore]

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[Michael]

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This is the original link to the article published by AVIC/CAC. You can save it and use it as evidence during discussions.

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/U2tQoNrcUqOoEbe7yFvk5A

 

[ARMalik]

Trying to link some obscure transactions and Calling it "White Paper" does not make it authentic. IT IS AN OPINION OF AN INDIVIDUAL OR A GROUP OF INDIVUDUALS. Wajahat is not some "Gospel of God" but a very compromised individual.

And this is the problem with majority of Pakistan people - believing and speculating on things and passing it as 100% truth which otherwise would not pass any bench mark of authenticity. Because it conveniently fits your narrative does not mean it the Truth.