PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[LegionnairE]

They cannot - this isn’t the 90s and Turkey has its own supply chain to worry about.

It took a lot to convince US and LM to allow MLU at TAI - NOTHING on those F-16s can be done without US approval - not even a Turkish screw.

The structural repair did get a lot of pushback and its not been a perfect fix.

it happened at a time that Turkish - American relations were at their lowest, after the S400 debacle but still we got what we wanted.

Not only we extended the lifespan of these airframes but they got lighter, stronger. Post MLU F-16s are very different than what we received in the 80 ies and 90 ies

Özgür replaces the American avionics almost entirely. Flight computer, mission computer, radar, we can fire any Turkish made missile, drop any munition we have. We pretty much have complete control over these planes.

SOM B2 being tested in 2020

Correct me if I'm wrong but so far I haven't seen any non-chinese weapon fired from the J-10C

 

[Oscar]

it happened at a time that Turkish - American relations were at their lowest, after the S400 debacle but still we got what we wanted.

Not only we extended the lifespan of these airframes but they got lighter, stronger. Post MLU F-16s are very different than what we received in the 80 ies and 90 ies

Özgür replaces the American avionics almost entirely. Flight computer, mission computer, radar, we can fire any Turkish made missile, drop any munition we have. We pretty much have complete control over these planes.
View attachment 28829
SOM B2 being tested in 2020

Correct me if I'm wrong but so far I haven't seen any non-chinese weapon fired from the J-10C

All with American ok - unless OEM is onboard it cannot happen.

The J-10Cs aren’t open to any non Chinese weapon.

 

[LegionnairE]

All with American ok - unless OEM is onboard it cannot happen.

Just out of curiosity, this is a big unknown in Turkey that everyone speculates. many defense analysts commented on this and nobody knows if Turkey received an OK from the Americans over the ÖZGÜR project. How do you know?

 

[Hussain]

They are best left to live out their lives as OCU airframes

Sir, can you please open a PM with me, at your convenience.

 

[Hussain]

All with American ok - unless OEM is onboard it cannot happen.

The J-10Cs aren’t open to any non Chinese weapon.

What about Pakistani weapons, not even them?

 

[Windjammer]

 

[guangdongt]

it happened at a time that Turkish - American relations were at their lowest, after the S400 debacle but still we got what we wanted.

Not only we extended the lifespan of these airframes but they got lighter, stronger. Post MLU F-16s are very different than what we received in the 80 ies and 90 ies

Özgür replaces the American avionics almost entirely. Flight computer, mission computer, radar, we can fire any Turkish made missile, drop any munition we have. We pretty much have complete control over these planes.
View attachment 28829
SOM B2 being tested in 2020

Correct me if I'm wrong but so far I haven't seen any non-chinese weapon fired from the J-10C

Realistically, if the United States allowed Türkiye to sell Türkiye's f16, they would have sold their own f16 to Pakistan
Considering that KAAN still needs American engines in the early stage, they cannot allow you to do anything that goes against American interests, just like China has fighter jets like the J-11 and J-16, which China has never exported.
You may think that this is an illegal copy of something. However, the essence of the international arms trade is all about interests. They let you spend 23 billion dollars to upgrade f16. How can you possibly let the f16 technology made in Türkiye flow to Pakistan?
I believe it is only possible to sell the KAAN with domestically produced engines to Pakistan, as long as the US policy towards Pakistan remains unchanged，Türkiye is a powerful military manufacturing country with NATO standards, but it is also a double-edged sword. Maybe the completely localized kaan can change completely

 

[LegionnairE]

Realistically, if the United States allowed Türkiye to sell Türkiye's f16, they would have sold their own f16 to Pakistan
Considering that KAAN still needs American engines in the early stage, they cannot allow you to do anything that goes against American interests, just like China has fighter jets like the J-11 and J-16, which China has never exported.
You may think that this is an illegal copy of something. However, the essence of the international arms trade is all about interests. They let you spend 23 billion dollars to upgrade f16. How can you possibly let the f16 technology made in Türkiye flow to Pakistan?
I believe it is only possible to sell the KAAN with domestically produced engines to Pakistan, as long as the US policy towards Pakistan remains unchanged

Where to start?

1) Turkey can't even retire the F4 Terminators, we need more fighters, F-16s are not for sale
2) Kaan is still in its infancy, there's going to be a LONG time before we can discuss exports. We will all be much older, we should let our children discuss that.
3) 23 billion dollars figure is misleading. It's an upper limit. And that deal includes thousands of different types of equipment
4) Block 70 upgrade is unrelated to özgür. Turkey currently operates around 240 F-16s only 80 of them will receive the Block 70 upgrade, rest of them are going to be Özgür

5) most importantly the point I was making earlier was about F-16 spare parts, missiles, that sort of thing. We're not going to make unlicenced copies of F-16 for any country, not even for ourselves. Not that we can't. Technologically we're almost there.

 

[guangdongt]

Where to start?

1) Turkey can't even retire the F4 Terminators, we need more fighters, F-16s are not for sale
2) Kaan is still in its infancy, there's going to be a LONG time before we can discuss exports. We will all be much older, we should let our children discuss that.
3) 23 billion dollars figure is misleading. It's an upper limit. And that deal includes thousands of different types of equipment
5) most importantly the point I was making earlier was about F-16 spare parts, missiles, that sort of thing. We're not going to make unlicenced copies of F-16 for any country, not even for ourselves. Not that we can't. Technologically we're almost there.

The advanced fighter jets in Pakistan are the F16, J-10, and Jf-17. These planes are either from the United States or China, just like China's J-11 electronic system weapon systems have all been replaced locally, and the fuselage and body are all domestically manufactured. It cannot fundamentally change its prototype, which comes from the SU27 series. As long as you want to export, you will encounter obstacles, and the pressure you face is from the United States。So I think kaan is more realistic

 

[Corax]

Where to start?

1) Turkey can't even retire the F4 Terminators, we need more fighters, F-16s are not for sale
2) Kaan is still in its infancy, there's going to be a LONG time before we can discuss exports. We will all be much older, we should let our children discuss that.
3) 23 billion dollars figure is misleading. It's an upper limit. And that deal includes thousands of different types of equipment
4) Block 70 upgrade is unrelated to özgür. Turkey currently operates around 240 F-16s only 80 of them will receive the Block 70 upgrade, rest of them are going to be Özgür

5) most importantly the point I was making earlier was about F-16 spare parts, missiles, that sort of thing. We're not going to make unlicenced copies of F-16 for any country, not even for ourselves. Not that we can't. Technologically we're almost there.

Interesting, why adopt two separate upgrade packages for your Vipers? Why not standardise on Ozgur across your legacy fleet to improve support and flexibility with having your own systems and weapons?

 

[LegionnairE]

Interesting, why adopt two separate upgrade packages for your Vipers? Why not standardise on Ozgur across your legacy fleet to improve support and flexibility with having your own systems and weapons?

Good question, why buy over a thousand AIM-120C8s when we have the Gökdoğan series missiles?

I think the answer lies in the threat environment Turkey faces and how much getting kicked out of F-35 program set us back. We need these fighters yesterday, and we don't have the production capacity to make them fast enough. In my opinion we still need the Eurofighter and the Meteor missile but Germany is very stubborn. I swear their political class is more boneheaded than Iran's mullahs

 

[Corax]

Good question, why buy over a thousand AIM-120C8s when we have the Gökdoğan series missiles?

I think the answer lies in the threat environment Turkey faces and how much getting kicked out of F-35 program set us back. We need these fighters yesterday, and we don't have the production capacity to make them fast enough. In my opinion we still need the Eurofighter and the Meteor missile but Germany is very stubborn. I swear their political class is more boneheaded than Iran's mullahs

I wasn't trying to be facetious, just trying to understand the strategy. Incidentally, is it possible to integrate western weapons like the AIM-120s on the Ozgur upgrade package? My line of questioning was trying to figure out why pursue 2 separate upgrade packages that may have similar capabilities, especially if you can achieve the same result with a home-grown solution, rather than spending money with the US, which clearly has been an unreliable partner.

 

[m52k85]

Interesting, why adopt two separate upgrade packages for your Vipers? Why not standardise on Ozgur across your legacy fleet to improve support and flexibility with having your own systems and weapons?

because unlike Pakistan, Turkey is actually preparing for a wide protracted conflict. PAFs only technological competitor is IAF, Turkey has potential adversaries in three theaters:
1. West: Greco-French
2. South and South-East: Israel (and some TCing Arabs)
3. North-East: USA (uncle Sam really loves the kurds)

 

[Corax]

because unlike Pakistan, Turkey is actually preparing for a wide protracted conflict. PAFs only technological competitor is IAF, Turkey has potential adversaries in three theaters:
1. West: Greco-French
2. South and South-East: Israel (and some TCing Arabs)
3. North-East: USA (uncle Sam really loves the kurds)

How does having two Viper upgrade packages help with any of those somewhat unlikely scenarios?

1. An armed conflict between NATO members? Extremely unlikely.
2. Despite the war of words between Erdogan and the Israelis, there's no appetite for an armed conflict between the respective military establishments, and again, relations would have to deteriorate very drastically, while US intervention would stop things getting that bad.
3. I assume you mean a proxy war between the US and Turkey through the Kurds, or a direct conflict with the US? If the former, that's been going on for decades. The US has no love for the Kurds per se, but they've been useful to them in Iraq and Syria. Annoying the Turks is the price they pay, but it's a small price to pay for the US. If you mean the latter, the US going to war with Turkey? ok, good luck with that.

 

[m52k85]

How does having two Viper upgrade packages help with any of those somewhat unlikely scenarios?

1. An armed conflict between NATO members? Extremely unlikely.
2. Despite the war of words between Erdogan and the Israelis, there's no appetite for an armed conflict between the respective military establishments, and again, relations would have to deteriorate very drastically, while US intervention would stop things getting that bad.
3. I assume you mean a proxy war between the US and Turkey through the Kurds, or a direct conflict with the US? If the former, that's been going on for decades. The US has no love for the Kurds per se, but they've been useful to them in Iraq and Syria. Annoying the Turks is the price they pay, but it's a small price to pay for the US. If you mean the latter, the US going to war with Turkey? ok, good luck with that.

Yes, that all appears to be right.