PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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PLAAF's J-10C will carry more different avionics due to the different level of computerization of China-Pakistan's airborne tactical command system (if we take a closer look at the photos of the J-10C and the J-10CE, we can see some subtle differences in appearance).
Yes, but I think you are confusing how an aircraft operates in different modes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your understanding is that a multi-role aircraft's radar will be working multiple modes simultaneously, so it's T/r modules will be allocated for different tasks. Whereas in a dedicated A2A role, the aircraft will solely focus all it's T/r modules on A2A tasks.

I think the difference in our opinions here lies in theory and practical application.

An aircraft on any task / duty does not operate alone, or if so rarely, Minimum will be a pair. Pair's are usally for CAP duties btw, for A2G it's min 6 to 8, for A2Sea min is 4 to 6.

With the advent of data sharing, workload is split up with each aircraft performing a dedicated task, and then sharing that data with accompanying aircrafts, AWACS, ground controllers etc ( and vice versa) to create a holistic theater map.


Overall. Due to the limitations of the J-10C itself, it can barely operate with the other main PLAAF fighters (J-16/J-20/J-35) with a reduced payload. Based on the cost factor, PLAAF equipped a certain number of J-10C fighters. In terms of performance, it is not comparable to the other main fighters of PLAAF.
This is a moot point. It would be unfair to compare a J10 with a J-16. Apples and oranges.
Once AVIC's other mainstay fighters reach a certain level of production, these J-10Cs will also be fast-tracked into the retirement sequence. Of course, this will take several years.
This was the initial plan, but with the advent of UCAV's with AI this could be sooner.

Lower tier aircrafts such as the J10 could see themselves restricted to exports, rather than fulfilling the QRF / CAP role it is designated to in certain PLAAF commands.

Thank you for your valuable feedback.
 
Look at this way, how would it look for China, if they gave PAF a cutting edge version, while selling downgraded versions to other countries?
Do other countries / customers enjoy the same strategic relationship going back decades?
When China sells weapons to foreign countries, they are customized options.
For example: J-10CE. its airframe and engine are basically fixed. However, the customer is free to choose the relevant components from China's exportable kits according to their needs.PAF gave their J-10CE the option of a multi-mission combination model. In the future, other customers may choose the same multi-mission combination mode, or they may choose the air superiority combination mode. The exact choice is up to the customer. ------ Of course, they are limited to exportable related components. PLAAF's special dedicated components are not exportable.

For block 3 JF-17 we also have PL-15E, standard PL-15 is only for J-10C, we are yet to be seen standard (PLAAF version of PL-15 range 200 km) on JF-17 block 3
The actual range of a modern medium to long range BVR air-to-air missile is not entirely determined by the fighter itself. Especially some 4th/4.5th Gen fighters upgraded by modifications. They are limited by the power generated by their engines. They can hardly operate at full power even when equipped with the most advanced GaN AESA radars.
I.e., the maximum range of the BVR air-to-air missile exceeds the maximum lock-on range of the onboard radar. At that point, it must rely on the help of the Air Combat Command Data Link to guide the missile through the radars of other weapon systems. Without the radars of other weapon systems to guide it, it will be forced to shorten its attack range (the farthest lock-on distance of the fighter's onboard radar).

@Michael validated something very interesting, some time back.
Once a missile is sold, China has no control over how it is modified by the end user.
The official word:
China exports weapons systems without non-trade conditions.
For example:
When PAF got F-16, US did not allow Pakistan to use it for Kashmir.
When PAF acquired the J-10CE, there were no such restrictions.

When a customer buys a Chinese weapon, China will not allow/prohibit the customer to modify the weapon parameters privately. When a customer disassembles the weapon system privately, he/she will lose the eligibility for after-sales service. That is all. China will not take any other sanctions as a result. ------ China's advanced weapon systems sold to foreign countries come with encrypted electronic fences to prevent these weapons from being used to attack China.

Yes, but I think you are confusing how an aircraft operates in different modes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It's similar to how we play RPG game.
J-10C and J-10CE. the total number of attribute points for the main character is the same. But the way they distribute their attribute points is different. Strength, Wisdom, Agility, Physical ......

This is a moot point. It would be unfair to compare a J10 with a J-16. Apples and oranges.
I certainly realize that the J-10C cannot be compared to the J-16.
However, the J-10C is basically not tasked with ground/sea strikes in the PLAAF sequence. It is an airspace guard right now. It will be withdrawn once more and more advanced air superiority fighters come into service in the PLAAF.
That's a different niche than the PAF's J-10CE, which is required to have a ground/sea strike mission.

This was the initial plan, but with the advent of UCAV's with AI this could be sooner.
China's UCAVs are growing really fast. However, manned fighters will still be very active for many years to come. Current UCAVs still have many mission blind spots.
 
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For block 3 JF-17 we also have PL-15E, standard PL-15 is only for J-10C, we are yet to be seen standard (PLAAF version of PL-15 range 200 km) on JF-17 block 3


I would call it the other way around and even more dramatic:

So far we haven't seen a JF-17C with a PL-15 of any sort and also "standard PL-15 is not yet seen, PL-15E is only for J-10C, we are yet to be seen standard (PLAAF version of PL-15 range 200 km) on J-10CE"

1741170011895.jpeg
 
I would call it the other way around and even more dramatic:

So far we haven't seen a JF-17C with a PL-15 of any sort and also "standard PL-15 is not yet seen, PL-15E is only for J-10C, we are yet to be seen standard (PLAAF version of PL-15 range 200 km) on J-10CE"

View attachment 105602
It is moot at this point - actual operational ranges(not range because it varies ) are rarely disclosed or even discussed outside of strict NDA and OPSEC protocols.

For e.g the AIM-120 shot that was taken and result shared with reps by PAF was as I heard it from someone the air on that day taken at the edge of the MAR. The result is too contentious but the focus is that if one ever looks at most general displays for missile launch parameters in a cockpit its a moving caret of probability.

Meteor is designed to give a higher probability (if one imagines it as a bell curve plotted on missile propellant and energy) within a range while PL-15E provides a greater range within which a lesser probability but a wider bell curve comes in.

@Michael gave a good answer to this - the PL-15E - PL-15 is not a case of AIM-120C to AIM-120D nor a Russian “Monkey model” . Instead it’s a software calibration to optimize it for specific range.
 
It is moot at this point - actual operational ranges(not range because it varies ) are rarely disclosed or even discussed outside of strict NDA and OPSEC protocols.

For e.g the AIM-120 shot that was taken and result shared with reps by PAF was as I heard it from someone the air on that day taken at the edge of the MAR. The result is too contentious but the focus is that if one ever looks at most general displays for missile launch parameters in a cockpit its a moving caret of probability.

Meteor is designed to give a higher probability (if one imagines it as a bell curve plotted on missile propellant and energy) within a range while PL-15E provides a greater range within which a lesser probability but a wider bell curve comes in.

@Michael gave a good answer to this - the PL-15E - PL-15 is not a case of AIM-120C to AIM-120D nor a Russian “Monkey model” . Instead it’s a software calibration to optimize it for specific range.
cant agree more ... knowing history, China has been equipping Pakistan with top notch weapons, they don't cut corners. and PAF dont go for half baked potatoes. I am very clear in my mind that PAF got PL15 ... end of the topic. now is that the end of it, 100% not, there is more to come. will JF17 be going to use the same PL15? Most probably not There are more to come; just be patient. Bottom line, PAF is having 1-2 squadrons of J10C, including Pakistan-specific updates, plus 2 squadrons of JF17C, which is 3-4 squadrons in place now to 2 squadrons of rafel of IAF. PAF did not have this scenario since the 1960s when PAF had the F104 starfighter while IAF had no answer for it. pretty soon, PAF will induct J35 on top of 2 J10C and 3 JF17C squadrons, and IAF doesn't seem to have any answer for it for the next 5-7 years. i know i am getting bit carried away with J35 but the fact remains, with all the global support, and financial boosting, IAF and Indian baboos failed to formalize the strategy to get one up on PAF and have a response to China's 5th gen mass production. on the other had PAF and Pakistan keep on getting ahead in many spaces. Now this is the fact and the statement that let IAF and India live with it. they may cry in the bathroom ... i dont care ...

historically i had a lot from India and IAF about su-30mki, MMRCA , teja etc etc since 1999 till 2015. i got tired/ sick of it..

it is my turn now, our turn ... I am so proud of it, as some of my coursemates are at the helm of this progress. keep it up ...
 
cant agree more ... knowing history, China has been equipping Pakistan with top notch weapons, they don't cut corners. and PAF dont go for half baked potatoes. I am very clear in my mind that PAF got PL15 ... end of the topic. now is that the end of it, 100% not, there is more to come. will JF17 be going to use the same PL15? Most probably not There are more to come; just be patient. Bottom line, PAF is having 1-2 squadrons of J10C, including Pakistan-specific updates, plus 2 squadrons of JF17C, which is 3-4 squadrons in place now to 2 squadrons of rafel of IAF. PAF did not have this scenario since the 1960s when PAF had the F104 starfighter while IAF had no answer for it. pretty soon, PAF will induct J35 on top of 2 J10C and 3 JF17C squadrons, and IAF doesn't seem to have any answer for it for the next 5-7 years. i know i am getting bit carried away with J35 but the fact remains, with all the global support, and financial boosting, IAF and Indian baboos failed to formalize the strategy to get one up on PAF and have a response to China's 5th gen mass production. on the other had PAF and Pakistan keep on getting ahead in many spaces. Now this is the fact and the statement that let IAF and India live with it. they may cry in the bathroom ... i dont care ...

historically i had a lot from India and IAF about su-30mki, MMRCA , teja etc etc since 1999 till 2015. i got tired/ sick of it..

it is my turn now, our turn ... I am so proud of it, as some of my coursemates are at the helm of this progress. keep it up ...
IAF got stuck in its own grandeur and Indian processes- they are a great air force and people want to learn from them.

But procurement for larger forces is different and it’s never an on off switch unless you’re truly empowered to undertake programs in an agile manner. India’s processes are anything but agile.

The J-10C is good - it’s good in BVR but struggles in WVR in certain aspects but that is offset by PL-10.
 
The J-10C is good - it’s good in BVR but struggles in WVR in certain aspects but that is offset by PL-10.
I'm wondering, is this your analysis? Or a comment from a PAF pilot?

This conclusion, contrary to our view, is just the opposite.
We believe that the J-10C has a strong WVR capability and a weak BVR capability. (It is compared to PLAAF's active mainstay 4th/4.5th Gen fighters)
 
cant agree more ... knowing history, China has been equipping Pakistan with top notch weapons, they don't cut corners. and PAF dont go for half baked potatoes. I am very clear in my mind that PAF got PL15 ... end of the topic. now is that the end of it, 100% not, there is more to come. will JF17 be going to use the same PL15? Most probably not There are more to come; just be patient. Bottom line, PAF is having 1-2 squadrons of J10C, including Pakistan-specific updates, plus 2 squadrons of JF17C, which is 3-4 squadrons in place now to 2 squadrons of rafel of IAF. PAF did not have this scenario since the 1960s when PAF had the F104 starfighter while IAF had no answer for it. pretty soon, PAF will induct J35 on top of 2 J10C and 3 JF17C squadrons, and IAF doesn't seem to have any answer for it for the next 5-7 years. i know i am getting bit carried away with J35 but the fact remains, with all the global support, and financial boosting, IAF and Indian baboos failed to formalize the strategy to get one up on PAF and have a response to China's 5th gen mass production. on the other had PAF and Pakistan keep on getting ahead in many spaces. Now this is the fact and the statement that let IAF and India live with it. they may cry in the bathroom ... i dont care ...

historically i had a lot from India and IAF about su-30mki, MMRCA , teja etc etc since 1999 till 2015. i got tired/ sick of it..

it is my turn now, our turn ... I am so proud of it, as some of my coursemates are at the helm of this progress. keep it up ...
The only time IAF had a one up on PAF was in the 1990s and early 2000s, when PAF was inducting Mig-21s of the Arab-Israel war era after inducting its F-16s. Since then the fruits of China taking off filtered through to the PAF preceded with 10 or so years advantage due to Musharaf's 'yes sir' in the WOT.
 
I'm wondering, is this your analysis? Or a comment from a PAF pilot?

This conclusion, contrary to our view, is just the opposite.
We believe that the J-10C has a strong WVR capability and a weak BVR capability. (It is compared to PLAAF's active mainstay 4th/4.5th Gen fighters)

Maybe the comparisons are different. Like, for China, it's the J-11 and J-16, but for Pakistan, it's the F-16. Just a guess, though.
 
The only time IAF had a one up on PAF was in the 1990s and early 2000s, when PAF was inducting Mig-21s of the Arab-Israel war era after inducting its F-16s. Since then the fruits of China taking off filtered through to the PAF preceded with 10 or so years advantage due to Musharaf's 'yes sir' in the WOT.

Turkey is also coming online as an alternative for Pakistan aswell, so the old days of the USA "veto" on what PAF could upgrade to, that was influenced by India are coming to an end. The veto still exists for platforms from Europe, but Pakistan has moved past that with the JF17 programme and the J10CE and PAF wont look to Europe for a 5th gen, or 6th gen platform anyway.

Indians had their moment of slowing down PAFs procurement programmes in the past and they were very very successful with their strategy of making promises of procurement if they did not sell to Pakistan. PAF still unfortunately deals with the issue of having the JF17 platform be smaller(the intent was to build an F16 size platform originally which would have required a more powerful engine that they could not get their hands on) than what they would have liked due to India's successful intervention of talking down the Russias from giving the more powerful Saturn AL-31 series of engines as the baseline for the FC1 programme, the impact has since been reduced since the JF17 platform is far far more capable as an electronic platform than what was originally planned as the world has moved on.
 
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I'm wondering, is this your analysis? Or a comment from a PAF pilot?

This conclusion, contrary to our view, is just the opposite.
We believe that the J-10C has a strong WVR capability and a weak BVR capability. (It is compared to PLAAF's active mainstay 4th/4.5th Gen fighters)
I think he is referring about Dalta wings design which are known to be relatively weak in sustaining energy, though their instantaneous turn rates are consider better
 
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