PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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Can you simply shut up? All your posts concerning the J-10 history is as embarrassing like your constant pro-Russian propaganda in the Ukraine war thread. So better stop talking about stuff you do not understand.
he may be a 16 to 22 year old, let's not take him too serious.
 
But you involved in lavi project, possibly you absorb some of lavi elements in your J10A/S

That's true of early J-10 design but in 1989 Tian An Men massacre occurred and the West imposed sanction on China so J-10 had to be redesigned.
 
The Israelis would love you to believe that.
Hi,

They sold the design---. Their engineers went to china to share the design---.

This was brought up in the US congress as well.

My child---you have no clue how much the isrelis and the american defence companies have shared with the chinese---.

Even after 1989---information was going out of the us to china---.
 
That's true of early J-10 design but in 1989 Tian An Men massacre occurred and the West imposed sanction on China so J-10 had to be redesigned.
You have no proofs that early J10 had to be redesigned after that specific incident, you're just assuming or guessing
 
IAI did have some involvement in early wind tunnel testing but it was a relatively small group of around 20 engineers. I suspect it was a consultant type role as they of course had recent experience with a close coupled delta Canard Configuration
From AWST November 1995
CHINA'S CHENGDU F-10 fighter aircraft, being developed jointly with Israel, may be fitted with a Russian air-intercept radar and powerplant. Russian radar-design house Phazotron is proposing an advanced variant of its Zhuk (Beetle) multimode pulse-Doppler radar for the fighter, as the Israelis try to convince die Chinese to fit their systems. Phazotron officials say that they are offering the Zhemchoug (Pearl) radar — described as a "development of the Zhuk, but with a better performance in terms of target detection range". Previous reports on the development of the F-10 had suggested that the aircraft — effectively a continuation of Israel's Lavi programme, cancelled in 1987 — would have an Elta radar. The Russians also claim that the aircraft is to be powered by a single Lyulka AL-31F engine, two of which are fitted to the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker. With a first flight expected as early as 1996, a powerplant for the prototype will already have been selected and possibly fitted. The Lavi was fitted with the 91.7kN (20,6201b)-thrust Pratt & Whitney PW1120 turbojet, although the release of the US engine to China is highly unlikely. A single Lyulka AL-31F produces 122kN of thrust with reheat. The Chinese air force already has 26 Flankers in service, with a second batch of 24 believed to be on order. China has ambitions eventually to licence-produce the airframe and Lyulka engine. The latter would probably be produced by Wopen in Guiyang. While the Chinese may in effect be holding a radar competition, the Israelis have run into serious opposition from the USA over the potential supply of advanced air intercept-radar technology to the Chinese. When Flight International first revealed in 1994 that the F-10 was a Chinese-Israeli collaborative programme, the US State Department announced publicly that it would examine whether Israel was in breach of US export regulations. The US Government had been aware of the programme for several years and tried to get Tel Aviv to drop the project — the Lavi fighter programme having received much of its funding and technology from the USA. The first pictures of the aircraft are reported to have been taken by US intelligence satellites in 1994, prompting US defence secretary William Perry to make a personal plea earlier this year to recently assassinated Israeli prime minister, Yitzak Rabin to drop the programme — without success. The prototype of the new fighter is being assembled in a special site at Chengdu Aircraft, in Sichuan. In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu. IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years. The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion

Both a Zhuk Radar and an Israeli EM-2035 were evaluated but the Chinese went with the domestic KLJ-3 which was an evolution of their experience with peace pearl.

The HUD MFD package seems to have come from IAI, the Chinese had not developed such a system at the time and were happy enough to use the Israeli avonics (some versions of the J-8 and J-7 will use various avionics from Britain, Israel and others).

AWST March 1995
NEW CHINESE FIGHTER NEARS PROTOTYPING

defense officials are circulating drawings within the Pentagon of the proposed next—generation F-10 Chinese fighter that show a relatively compact multirole aircraft resembling a cross between the U.S.-built F-16 and Israeli-built Lavi. The design calls for a single-engine fighter with a planform similar to the Lavi's delta wing and canard. It also incorporates advanced cockpit avionics including a headup display, radar for beyond-visual-range combat and provisions for radar-guided, air-to-air missiles. A US. official called the equipment package ”analogous to the F-16's” and appropriate for both interceptor
and ground attack missions. The F-10 program is said to be nearing prototype production, with First flight expected in the next year or two and initial
operating capability in 10 years. It represents one of China’s key Iong«term modernization efforts. Modernization of the Chinese air force and navy is expected to be fueled in part by a 21 % increase in I995 Chinese defense spending proposed two weeks ago. The official I994 Chinese defense budget was $6 billion, but analysts believe this year’s spending increase may have been offset by a double-digit inflation rate.

However, China analyst Thomas McNaugher, a Rand senior political scientist, said the actual defense spending is probably $20- 30 billion if the purchase of new military equipment and the income from military-run enterprises is included. The Chinese budget has seen double~digit raises since I990, he said.

Today, the Chinese air force and navy are "a line-of—sight fighting force, which in modern combat means it’s a dead force," a second pressing need for a beyond-visuaI-range multirole fighter drives modernization of China’s air force and draws Israeli technology support defense official said. As a result, the Chinese government is putting renewed emphasis into advanced technology for its air force and navy. Development of the F-10 complements the purchase of Russian-built Su-27 fighters as central elements of the country's aviation modernization.

”THERE [ALSO] IS CLEAR need for an airrefueling capability” on the fighter; although, it is unclear whether that will be part of the final design, the second official said. Fighter aircraft with greater range are a key Chinese mission need, considering the nation's commitment to preserving its sovereignty in the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea (claimed by Malaysia, Taiwan, Vietnam, Brunei and the Philippines) and the ParaceI Islands also in the South China Sea (claimed by the Vietnamese), he said. In February, China occupied Mischief Reef (claimed by the Philippines) about I30 mi. west of the Philippines.

Additionally, the Chinese surface navy has a very limited ability to defend itself from air attack, so "they need 0 CAP [combat air patrol] capability” that would demand long-range aircraft and in-flight refueling, the second official said. However, the Chinese have made little progress in developing an in-air-refueling or airborne early warning capability beyond identifying mission needs, he said. Israeli and U.S. defense officials confirmed that Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) is offering help with the Chinese fighter's avionics package. Israeli officials deny any classified information or technology has migrated to China as a result of the collaboration. Israeli officials insist they are in full compliance with U.S. technology transfer law. The US. supplied Israel with technological support for the canceled Lavi. A U.S. official said the Pentagon is ”not in a position to say if the technology transfer is legitimate or not.”

The radar and other avionics that the Israelis are offering also are thought to be part of IAI’s Northrop F-5 Plus upgrade, which the company has offered to several countries including Chile (AW&ST Mar. 25, I99I, p. 46).

”If the only thing Israel [contributed] to the F-10 is a radar package and avionics, they are correct in saying they are violating no laws,” Richard A. Bitzinger said. He is a defense industry analyst for the Defense Budget Proiect, an independent, Washington-based research organization. ”But, if the Israelis also offered design assistance or manufacturing technologies to the Chinese that were based on the Lavi proiect, then there may have been a violation of at least the spirit of U.S. export controls.”
The F-5 Plus avionics upgrade is a scaled-down Lavi package, with options
* Video camera and recorder.
* Two multifunction displays.
* Helmet-mounted sight.
* Integrated electronic warfare suite.

Israeli officials point out that the U.S. has been the biggest customer for the country’s defense business for the last three years and, as a result, they would not do anything to irritate the Us. and endanger that lucrative market. However, within the U.S. restrictions, Israel, among other countries, has the capacity to supply many of China’s technology needs including updated avionics, early warning capability and in-flight refueling.

PART OF THE PENTAGON’S seeming indifference to Israel's marketing to China is that it sees little danger to the U.S. from the F-10. However, the aircraft could be a worrisome opponent to the air forces of Vietnam, the Philippines or even Malaysia’s small MiG-29 force.

”I’ve seen [the data on the ChineseF-10]," a senior Air Force official said. ”I was not a lot concerned.”

China appears to be pursuing the same strategy as India with its light combat aircraft (LCA). Indian officials are not trying to build an aircraft that outperforms the F-I6 or MiG-29. Rather, they want to field in some numbers an aircraft with improved performance to replace their aging MiG-21s (AW&STJuly 25, I994, p. 42). In fact, Chinese officials have expressed interest in participating in the LCA proiect during a recent visit to India. A planning dele gation from Hindustani Aeronautics, Ltd., visited China last month. The first prototype LCA is now expected to roll out in October, a slip of five months.

The Chinese are looking to the Russians for an engine to power their F-10s. The Israelis used the U.S.-built Pratt & Whitney I I20 turbojet to equip their Lavi, but there Lockheed Ft. Worth’s FM is said to be the apparent model for the F-10’s nose-to-tail profile. is almost no chance the Chinese could buy engines or engine-building technology from the US. Instead, the Chinese are expected to build off the technology, logistics and maintenance base they are developing in fielding a proposed force of 60 Russian-built Su-27s. The fighter’s 27,557—lb.-thrust with afterburning Saturn/Lyulka AL-3IF turbofan
engines are more durable (approximately 1,500 hr. versus 500 hr. or less) than MiG-29 engines, and are considered a likely candidate for the F-10. The Chinese currently have 24 of the front-line Su—27 fighters and have at least another ”26 or so" on order, the first defense official said, ”and we think they will ask for more” before the ”Russian window” closes.

Some analysts believe a combination of growing U.S. pressure to stop arms technology transfers, a disappearing supply of completed new combat aircraft and redirection of the aviation industry will dampen Russian weapons sales within a few years, thus closing the so-called Russian window.

THE FIRST CHINESE SU'27 Unit is not fully operational, but it has progressed to ”about where you would expect” any new user of the aircraft to be, the first official said. The unit is expected to be fully operational within the next 12 months. China’s purchases of Su-27s and Kilo class diesel submarines are considered aberrations in China's continuing policy of industrial self-reliance. The Chinese intend to learn from operating a fourth-generation
fighter what it takes to maintain, operate and generally ”deal with” modern aircraft, the first official said.

An earlier attempt to add Western technology to an indigenous airframe—the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. F-8-2 Finback B fighter/ground attack proiect foundered after US avionics deals were canceled in the wake of the I989 Tiananmen Square massacre. The program was canceled in 1990.

But then in I991, the allies’ quick dismemberment of the huge Iraqi army (fourth largest in the world) in Desert Storm ”had a devastating impact on Chinese force planners," the second defense official said. The graphic example of what an integrated force can do during high-intensity operations to a force incapable of combined operations came as a ”deep psychological shock.”

BUILDING FROM THE BASE of knowledge established with the Su-27, the Chinese intend a longer-term technology leap with the F-10. The new indigenous fighter is intended to be available in ”2000 or soon after," the first official said. ”What we don’t know is whether the PTO will appear with [less sophisticated] F-16A technology or [advanced] F-16C technology," the first defense official said. ”And we won't know until the proiect gets further along. The technology is hard to see at this point. We need more insight into their interests and the availability of technology.”

If the F-10 program is successful, U.S. officials expect the Chinese to build ”a couple of hundred or more,” the first defense official said. There is yet no indication that the Chinese are pursuing a naval version of either the Su-27 or F-IO. Purchase of the surplus Ukrainian-built aircraft carrier Varyag was tempting to the Chinese and money could have been found, US. defense officials said. But top Chinese defense officials considered the political cost of being seen as a potential regional aggressor as too high for the present.
They ended up using a domestic radar and a domestic RWR (I think a version of what’s on the PAF J-7). Looking at the hud and MFD from Chile’s F-5 III though I seem a bit of resemblance.

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The Lavi and J-10 don’t share any lines so I imagine it was more general experience. The early J-10 was also an all metal aircraft structurally more similar to the mirage then Lavi. The later J-10B/C have much more advanced composite construction but those are almost 15 years after China and IAI stopped working together.
 
You have no proofs that early J10 had to be redesigned after that specific incident, you're just assuming or guessing

It is true. The engine was switched to Russian made AL-31. So the fuselage had to be redesigned.
 
It is true. The engine was switched to Russian made AL-31. So the fuselage had to be redesigned.
And what you had the option for engine other than Russian one before the incident? None you had no suitable (INDIGENOUS) engine for early J10
 
And what you had the option for engine other than Russian one before the incident? None you had no suitable (INDIGENOUS) engine for early J10

WS-10 has better performance and unlike snail pace Russians, Chinese crank out WS-10 at rapid rate. J-10 production rate is no longer limited by engine production rate.
 
WS-10 has better performance and unlike snail pace Russians, Chinese crank out WS-10 at rapid rate. J-10 production rate is no longer limited by engine production rate.
WS-10 came lot later than you expected, after 2013 and still have a lot of problems
 
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