PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Aziqbal]

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beautiful but I like the dark green camo the one we have uses for decades on the Mirage 3/5

 

[White Privilege]

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I hope PAF has substantial supplies of these missiles, the way they are kept loaded. Or is it just for the photo, or is it more economical since J-10s are pretty much combat ready 24/7 given the situation....??

 

[RealNapster]

Um... Deino, China has been using PL-17 missiles in PLAAF for a long, long time.

When it's confirmed in our level, it is not only old, it has already been superseded. PL-17's replacement level missile is surely in PLAAF service.

Basically PL-15s superior is the PL-16 which is thinner and likely an improvement in all parameters. PL-15 is now an ancient missile to China. It is used for practise so they can be expended.

PL-17 is the long range missile. Its replacement has been around for some time according to Chinese forum discussions. There is also another type of missile that outranges PL-17 and PL-17's replacement.

So basically think of PL-12 as beyond ancient. PL-15 is ancient.

PL-16 is standard "mid range". These days mid range = previous years ultra long range due to new energetics, optimised guidance and trajectory computing, new generations of rocket engines, better throttle control and energy (fuel) management, better materials, better aerodynamics. Also tricks like dual or n-pulse controlled rocket motors (can control how many times your engine switches on, how long for, how much force it gives your missile) which open up entire new dimensions of movement optimisation. PL-16's replacement is around. This is how old PL-15 is.

PL-17 is standard "long range" and has been around more than 10 years since J-16 shown to you all flying with it. When it was shown, it would be old. Nothing new is ever exposed. I repeat, nothing novel and new is EVER shown to the internet. Whatever we see online is older than old. Please reverse this whole philosophy of confirming things with official announcement and only when serial numbers are counted. When those happen, these things are boring old stuff.

PL-17's replacement is said on Chinese internet to have been around for some time now. They are not ready to show it at all though. Even PL-17 is rarely shown these days but every few times a year we get a few photos.

In China, every 2 years is a new generation of car. Legacy automakers average is 6 to 8 years per generation of car. 3 or 4 years for a mid life upgrade for the car model. China used to also do that with MLU around 1 year or 2 years. Now it's entire new generation in 2 to 3 years. With missiles and military technology, it is about the same cutthroat iteration pace. Old generations are kept around with some manufacturing capacity left for them for redundancy. Really old stock are completely fired off and tested, intercepted etc.

PL-17 to PAF is not going to be some surprise or remarkable thing. If the business and politics makes sense, it would be easily, too easily done tomorrow. The question is the politics and business. PL-17 is not some safe queen for China. It's from mid 2010 or much earlier.

I believe this is the same reason China was not reluctant to sell PL-15 to Pakistan. Those believing china will sell them PL-16 too, well not before China sell us J-35/31. And it may take about 2-3 years atleast.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

The PL-15E that shot down the Rafale was produced in 2015. The PL-15 has been in mass production for at least 10 years and should indeed have been discontinued.

As for its successor, the PL-16, that remains a military secret.

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That's an old image unrelated to Indo-Pak.

 

[side-winder]

I hope PAF has substantial supplies of these missiles, the way they are kept loaded. Or is it just for the photo, or is it more economical since J-10s are pretty much combat ready 24/7 given the situation....??

You cannot keep all of them loaded like that - only some of them are reserved for ADA role with full missiles - most of them are back to routine training missions - few on maintenance. Keep rotating like that.

 

[Michael]

I believe this is the same reason China was not reluctant to sell PL-15 to Pakistan.

So, how did you know that China is not reluctant to sell PL-15E to Pakistan?

The PL-15E is a relatively expensive weapon for Pakistan. Pakistan's economic situation doesn't allow the PAF to purchase a large number of PL-15Es. Therefore, the PAF only needs to maintain a limited number of PL-15Es for basic combat readiness. PL-15E training missiles (blue) can be used in routine training.

If war were to strike, the PAF's PL-15E depletion rate would be far less than China's production rate.

So, you don't have to worry about this issue.

 

[RealNapster]

So, how did you know that China is not reluctant to sell PL-15E to Pakistan?

The PL-15E is a relatively expensive weapon for Pakistan. Pakistan's economic situation doesn't allow the PAF to purchase a large number of PL-15Es. Therefore, the PAF only needs to maintain a limited number of PL-15Es for basic combat readiness. PL-15E training missiles (blue) can be used in routine training.

If war were to strike, the PAF's PL-15E depletion rate would be far less than China's production rate.

So, you don't have to worry about this issue.

It doesn't matter. Pakistan do not require more than 400 PL-15E. Two reasons ,
1. As Pakistan fire them. India will loose jets which means less # of future targets .
2. Pakistan ,in the process, will also loose platforms to launch PL-15E.

So 400-450 it is. That's it.

Pak-India war will in no way go beyond that. And even if it does, army will be involved, rocket force, tanks, PL-12, cruise missiles, WVR missiles, . Pakistan won't miss PL-15E after the 400-450 count. And if I correctly remember, we bought some 240 PL-15E with the J-10CE deal. I am sure since then we have also bought more for our JF-17 block 3.

So, how did you know that China is not reluctant to sell PL-15E to Pakistan?

The fact that Pakistan already have it....

 

[RealNapster]

The PL-15E is a relatively expensive weapon for Pakistan.

A missile costing some $1.2 to $1.5 million that is capable of destroying an $150 million fighter jet ? Not expensive at all. Even if we have to fire 4 PL-15 at a single target, still cheap enough.

 

[Ak01]

A missile costing some $1.2 to $1.5 million that is capable of destroying an $150 million fighter jet ? Not expensive at all. Even if we have to fire 4 PL-15 at a single target, still cheap enough.

id be very shocked in a PL-15 cost 1m+.

J-10C and PL-15 deal. $10.17 billion RMB (~$1.5B USD) for 20 J-10CE, 240 PL-15E, 10 spare WS-10B and a FMS and associated stores and services.

240 missiles even at 1m would be a huge portion of the contract. Id expect a single PL-15 to be around, or less than 500k/missile

 

[Toxic]

So, how did you know that China is not reluctant to sell PL-15E to Pakistan?

The PL-15E is a relatively expensive weapon for Pakistan. Pakistan's economic situation doesn't allow the PAF to purchase a large number of PL-15Es. Therefore, the PAF only needs to maintain a limited number of PL-15Es for basic combat readiness. PL-15E training missiles (blue) can be used in routine training.

If war were to strike, the PAF's PL-15E depletion rate would be far less than China's production rate.

So, you don't have to worry about this issue.

Missiles are the cheapest part of the aircraft when factored into the overall cost of the aircraft, you might be paying maybe $5-6m for a full complement of missiles per aircraft that isn't very much in the context of a $85 million per aircraft package.

Also why would China be reluctant to sell the PL-15E to Pakistan when they have been openly offering it for export to other countries?

 

[rafale]

id be very shocked in a PL-15 cost 1m+.

J-10C and PL-15 deal. $10.17 billion RMB (~$1.5B USD) for 20 J-10CE, 240 PL-15E, 10 spare WS-10B and a FMS and associated stores and services.

240 missiles even at 1m would be a huge portion of the contract. Id expect a single PL-15 to be around, or less than 500k/missile

Yes you are right, Chinese production and supply chains are 2 to 4 times cheaper than Western ones.

So if Meteors and AMRAAMs cost 1 million plus USD equivalent, PL15 in equal numbers production will be half that easily.....with eventual goal to be even less than that. Zero chance that PL15 cost 1 million.

Most people don't understand supply chain efficiencies and capacities...........producing more is always better and cheaper and no one is better at it than the Chinese today.

 

[hussain0216]

It doesn't matter. Pakistan do not require more than 400 PL-15E. Two reasons ,
1. As Pakistan fire them. India will loose jets which means less # of future targets .
2. Pakistan ,in the process, will also loose platforms to launch PL-15E.

So 400-450 it is. That's it.

Pak-India war will in no way go beyond that. And even if it does, army will be involved, rocket force, tanks, PL-12, cruise missiles, WVR missiles, . Pakistan won't miss PL-15E after the 400-450 count. And if I correctly remember, we bought some 240 PL-15E with the J-10CE deal. I am sure since then we have also bought more for our JF-17 block 3.



The fact that Pakistan already have it....

We also have a bunch of SD10s and Aim-120s

 

[maxpane]

what are we going to do with sd 10s ?

 

[White Privilege]

what are we going to do with sd 10s ?

still active with Blk-1 and 2s, can be repurposed as a SAM may be as well....

 

[Toxic]

what are we going to do with sd 10s ?

Keep using them, we still have 120 or so aircraft that use them.