PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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This is the harsh reality our Pakistani brothers need to recognize. Russia and Western countries already view Pakistan as an extension of Chinese influence. If the Indian army suffers a devastating defeat that shakes the foundations of the government's rule, Western countries and Russia will undoubtedly end the war in Ukraine immediately and provide large-scale military aid to India. In that event, China, Pakistan, and India will be plunged into a long-term, high-intensity, all-out war. Our enemy will not be just India, but the entire West plus Russia.
That's why it's important to engage Americans to bring sizeable investment into Pakistan. That will not only give some leverage to Pakistan over US policies but also work as a deterrent against Indian aggression towards Pakistan.

Also, please note that a war with India isn't Pakistan's choice. Pakistanis want to have a decade of peace to focus on development. It's the Indians who want to undo Pakistan for achieving their Hindutva goal of Akhund Bharat. Since 1947, successive Indian governments have consistently followed the same expansionist policies (with minor differences in the means of achieving that goal) in the region. While Pakistan is not engaged in arms race with India, it has to ensure that it's not cowed down by Indians.

There is apparently no solution to Indian Hindutva expansionist policy other than dismembering the Indian union. Given the fascist Hindutva policies within India and extreme suppression of minorities and low caste Hindus, a ripe time for dismembering the enemy will certainly come and rather soon.

The fact is that China will get tremendously benefited from that change.
 
Agreed. But what If money wasn't a factor.......
The history of Pakistani acquisitions from China so far has proved the otherwise. The money has never been an issue. Whatever has to be done was absolutely done.

If Pakistan could order J-10C jets in 2020 when Pak economy was on a slide and kept the plans going in 2022-23 when Pak was about to hit the default, it will continue getting necessary systems in future too especially when the copper/gold projects start yielding significant income.
 
That's why it's important to engage Americans to bring sizeable investment into Pakistan. That will not only give some leverage to Pakistan over US policies but also work as a deterrent against Indian aggression towards Pakistan.

Also, please note that a war with India isn't Pakistan's choice. Pakistanis want to have a decade of peace to focus on development. It's the Indians who want to undo Pakistan for achieving their Hindutva goal of Akhund Bharat. Since 1947, successive Indian governments have consistently followed the same expansionist policies (with minor differences in the means of achieving that goal) in the region. While Pakistan is not engaged in arms race with India, it has to ensure that it's not cowed down by Indians.

There is apparently no solution to Indian Hindutva expansionist policy other than dismembering the Indian union. Given the fascist Hindutva policies within India and extreme suppression of minorities and low caste Hindus, a ripe time for dismembering the enemy will certainly come and rather soon.

The fact is that China will get tremendously benefited from that change.

India, or rather, India controlled by Hindu extremists, is crucial to the Western bloc.

Many Pakistani brothers focus solely on India's dominance over Pakistan in the South Asian subcontinent, but fail to notice the global expansion of the Islamic world as a whole. Western nations need brutal and violent Hindu extremists to prevent the expansion of Islam into the Western Pacific. They also need India to prevent China's expansion into the Indian Ocean.

The United States and other Western countries may tolerate India's fraudulent use of Western aid while refusing to challenge China's interests, but they certainly will not tolerate the dismemberment and collapse of India as a whole. This would lead to a convergence of China and the Islamic world in the Indian Ocean. It's unrealistic to think that the United States would make such a major strategic compromise for a small investment in Pakistan.

Dismembering India can only happen after China completely defeats Western hegemony. Pakistan's strategic goal should be to seize the Kashmir mountainous area, thereby gaining a strategic position to protect Pakistan's plains and achieve initial national security.
 
That's why it's important to engage Americans to bring sizeable investment into Pakistan. That will not only give some leverage to Pakistan over US policies but also work as a deterrent against Indian aggression towards Pakistan.

Also, please note that a war with India isn't Pakistan's choice. Pakistanis want to have a decade of peace to focus on development. It's the Indians who want to undo Pakistan for achieving their Hindutva goal of Akhund Bharat. Since 1947, successive Indian governments have consistently followed the same expansionist policies (with minor differences in the means of achieving that goal) in the region. While Pakistan is not engaged in arms race with India, it has to ensure that it's not cowed down by Indians.

There is apparently no solution to Indian Hindutva expansionist policy other than dismembering the Indian union. Given the fascist Hindutva policies within India and extreme suppression of minorities and low caste Hindus, a ripe time for dismembering the enemy will certainly come and rather soon.

The fact is that China will get tremendously benefited from that change.
at the end of the day it will be a religious war, the west will never support a muslim nation aganst india, no matter the size of investment!
 
Well, too many daydreamers here. Let's be real, Pakistan doesn't need anything more sophisticated than J 10C
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In 1962, Chinese troops decisively routed Indian forces in a border conflict. By then, the Chinese vanguard was within 300 kilometers of New Delhi, where residents had even begun building street forts. But the Chinese army chose to retreat rather than continue the offensive. Why? Because after China's defeat of India, the Soviet Union and the United States quickly ended the Cuban Missile Crisis, and both countries provided massive military assistance to India.

This is the harsh reality our Pakistani brothers need to recognize. Russia and Western countries already view Pakistan as an extension of Chinese influence. If the Indian army suffers a devastating defeat that shakes the foundations of the government's rule, Western countries and Russia will undoubtedly end the war in Ukraine immediately and provide large-scale military aid to India. In that event, China, Pakistan, and India will be plunged into a long-term, high-intensity, all-out war. Our enemy will not be just India, but the entire West plus Russia.

This is why I have consistently emphasized that it is not in Pakistan's interest to actively provoke an arms race or escalate conflict. Pakistan faces completely different enemies in defensive and offensive warfare. Given these circumstances, Pakistan's fighter jet upgrade program should be carefully paced and should not significantly outpace India's.

I 100% agree with you. Thanks for the history it would help many to know prior China vs. India war.

So now we agree of the threats Pakistan faces, the issue is, how to tackle it?

I have near confirmed news that Israel plans on setting up a permanent squadron of F-35's in India. We can close our eye and agree that these invisible jets will be used to penetrate the Pakistani airspace for certain things to prepare India for the next conflict.
Sri Nagar airbase has some critical upgrades being done to it for this.

The ONLY way to stop India's next venture is to create a "DETERRENCE". That deterrence only comes in one flavor. "Response in Kind"! with similar capability.

For that, we need 5th gen stealth jets and locally made BVR missiles in good numbers.

We can't get more than 40-60 J-35's but we need a larger fleet to build a credible deterrence. Plus with new Indian military's posture of having ONLY Pakistan as the core enemy, we'll face near 800 Jets (Rafales 150 + SU-30 250 + SU-57 - 60-100 + 400 4th gen mixed jets) + 3 tiers of nearly 10 S-400 and LR SAM batteries all focused on Pakistan.

So the deterrence requires us to partner with China and establish a 5th gen, single engine stealth aircraft project for cost effective build in a mixed of China + local manufacturing to strengthen numbers quickly and long term build and sustain locally.

Do note, if we can achieve this, all other future technologies like 6th gen, will be built on 5th gen. So all those future things, we could do here as our industry will be based on 5th gen and good for next 20-30 years.

Well, too many daydreamers here. Let's be real, Pakistan doesn't need anything more sophisticated than J 10C
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That's not what PAF's leadership thinks and anyone who has background in military strategy will laugh on your face. One side to field F-35's through Israel and later get SU-57's with near 800 other jets and massive tiers of S-400 and other long range SAM systems, and the other side to rely on JF-17 and J-10C? Is that really a comparison? I've not mentioned reduced range HQ-19's, when we need HQ-19's and a locally built NASAM like SAM system mass produced.

Also, do not, the President of Pakistan was given J-20's presentation. Why? Time will tell in the future.
 
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I 100% agree with you. Thanks for the history it would help many to know prior China vs. India war.

So now we agree of the threats Pakistan faces, the issue is, how to tackle it?

I have near confirmed news that Israel plans on setting up a permanent squadron of F-35's in India. We can close our eye and agree that these invisible jets will be used to penetrate the Pakistani airspace for certain things to prepare India for the next conflict.
Sri Nagar airbase has some critical upgrades being done to it for this.

The ONLY way to stop India's next venture is to create a "DETERRENCE". That deterrence only comes in one flavor. "Response in Kind"! with similar capability.

For that, we need 5th gen stealth jets and locally made BVR missiles in good numbers.

We can't get more than 40-60 J-35's but we need a larger fleet to build a credible deterrence. Plus with new Indian military's posture of having ONLY Pakistan as the core enemy, we'll face near 800 Jets (Rafales 150 + SU-30 250 + SU-57 - 60-100 + 400 4th gen mixed jets) + 3 tiers of nearly 10 S-400 and LR SAM batteries all focused on Pakistan.

So the deterrence requires us to partner with China and establish a 5th gen, single engine stealth aircraft project for cost effective build in a mixed of China + local manufacturing to strengthen numbers quickly and long term build and sustain locally.

Do note, if we can achieve this, all other future technologies like 6th gen, will be built on 5th gen. So all those future things, we could do here as our industry will be based on 5th gen and good for next 20-30 years.

This is undoubtedly a rumor.

Israel will not deploy F-35s to India; it is not in Israel's interests.

The United States will not allow Israel to do so either, as deploying F-35s near China's Tibet Military Command is extremely dangerous. The US cannot afford the risk of an F-35 being shot down in the current global climate. Such an event would lead to the complete collapse of US military hegemony.

India will also not allow Israel or the US to do so; it cannot afford the political cost of accepting protection from Israel and the US.
 
This is undoubtedly a rumor.

Israel will not deploy F-35s to India; it is not in Israel's interests.

The United States will not allow Israel to do so either, as deploying F-35s near China's Tibet Military Command is extremely dangerous. The US cannot afford the risk of an F-35 being shot down in the current global climate. Such an event would lead to the complete collapse of US military hegemony.

India will also not allow Israel or the US to do so; it cannot afford the political cost of accepting protection from Israel and the US.

No, it's not a rumor. I'll stop at that. And the US has no issues Israel deploying F-35's. They've now seen multiple military operations and could've been shot down so it's obvious the Israelis have full permissions to use the platform. It would be silly to think US administration can "stop" Israel from using a weapon system :ROFLMAO:

Secondly, in peace time, under "joint exercises", anything can be deployed. They aren't going to war with China or Pakistan. Why would the US or anyone care?
 
We all know redesigning any airframe is possible but it takes proper design and testing effort. But since a larger design is already done and in production, you do save lots of time as you've been through material, aerodynamics, engines, weapons and testing of various other parameters. Avionics and sensors can also be reused with adjusted power capacity for single engine vs. dual.
I fully understand the impact this perspective will have on our Pakistani friends. I don't expect you or the famous "Mad Dog arslank01" to understand it either.
==========================
Many of us have played simulation games. In these games, we can quickly create cars, airplanes, skyscrapers, cities, and so on, based on our own wishes, without much professional knowledge. There are countless such games, and you can explore them on your own.

While many people think these are just computer games, the Chinese have already applied this concept to a wide range of commercial product designs. If you conduct actual business with Chinese companies, you'll find many incredible things. A design proposal that would take at least a month to complete can be submitted to you within the next or three days. These proposals even include all the details and price quotes.

For example, completing a complete design for a villa.
The traditional model: This takes at least several months.
The new model: From contract signing to the completion of the complete design, it can be as fast as two days. It even includes all construction drawings, renderings, equipment lists, construction quotations, construction schedules......
These concepts have been fully integrated into various business activities in China.

This model has the following characteristics:
1. It requires a large, precisely organized module library. This means that it requires the participation of numerous subsystem suppliers, component suppliers, and other related companies. They use a common standard design language, independently developing submodules within their respective business areas, and then integrating them into the design system. The richer the system's module library, the greater the user's design scope.
2. For the average user, designing solely using the module library is extremely efficient, and requires no advanced technical knowledge. However, if you want to design entirely new components outside the module library, you will require significant expertise, significantly increasing both design time and complexity.
Creating this kind of design system doesn't require advanced software skills. The biggest challenge lies in business integration. ------ The number of companies involved in this large-scale system could reach hundreds of thousands or even millions.

This philosophy and approach isn't exclusive to Chinese companies. Many Western companies also employ this approach. The difference is that in China, the application is broader and larger.
==========================
Chinese companies involved in fighter jet design and production, such as AVIC, AECC, and CETC, are all state-owned enterprises. Integrating them onto a common design platform is not difficult.
A CCTV interview mentioned that AVIC has developed a comprehensive set of aircraft design software.
Academician Yang Wei stated in the interview that "China has entered an era of freedom in modern fighter jet design."
In recent years, China has demonstrated a variety of advanced fighter jets (both manned and unmanned). Generally speaking, no country can launch so many new types of fighter jets in such a short period of time. If traditional design models are adopted, China does not have this capability.
==========================
So, on a technical level, designing a single-engine 5th-Gen fighter for Pakistan based on existing technology is a very, very simple thing. The average aircraft designer might only need a few days to complete their initial design plans.
However, once the initial design is complete, extensive design verification and testing are required. For example, scaled-down models are constructed for wind tunnel testing, electromagnetic/infrared signature testing, and structural stress testing. These tests are repeated numerous times, and the data feedback used to further refine the original design. A prototype is then manufactured. This is followed by another round of testing, data feedback, and design revisions... (The procedures for manned fighter jets are many times more rigorous than those for UAVs.)
These steps are standard procedures and present no significant technical challenges. However, these repeated tests, verifications, and revisions incur significant costs.

Please note:
This view assumes that all existing Chinese technologies and related modules will be used, without developing new ones(New materials, new mechanical structures, new subsystems, etc.).

This question can end here.
 
personally, money aside, without any major tech. development breakthrough. I'd think twice, for asking Chinese help!

its better to stand on ones own feet!

this is not a video game, you provide me units, I will play for you!

defense does not come before dignity!
 
Well, too many daydreamers here. Let's be real, Pakistan doesn't need anything more sophisticated than J 10C
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Lol why you think Pakistan don't need j35 other than J-10C? Where was in this tweet says Pakistan only want J-10C? Threats from Israeli F35 in India and expected purchase of Su-57 by India will be threat to Pakistan Pakistan and Pakistan need and want 5th Gen jet namely j35 as soon as possible probably j35 will come to PAF in 2028-2030 time frame
 
I fully understand the impact this perspective will have on our Pakistani friends. I don't expect you or the famous "Mad Dog arslank01" to understand it either.
==========================
Many of us have played simulation games. In these games, we can quickly create cars, airplanes, skyscrapers, cities, and so on, based on our own wishes, without much professional knowledge. There are countless such games, and you can explore them on your own.

While many people think these are just computer games, the Chinese have already applied this concept to a wide range of commercial product designs. If you conduct actual business with Chinese companies, you'll find many incredible things. A design proposal that would take at least a month to complete can be submitted to you within the next or three days. These proposals even include all the details and price quotes.

For example, completing a complete design for a villa.
The traditional model: This takes at least several months.
The new model: From contract signing to the completion of the complete design, it can be as fast as two days. It even includes all construction drawings, renderings, equipment lists, construction quotations, construction schedules......
These concepts have been fully integrated into various business activities in China.

This model has the following characteristics:
1. It requires a large, precisely organized module library. This means that it requires the participation of numerous subsystem suppliers, component suppliers, and other related companies. They use a common standard design language, independently developing submodules within their respective business areas, and then integrating them into the design system. The richer the system's module library, the greater the user's design scope.
2. For the average user, designing solely using the module library is extremely efficient, and requires no advanced technical knowledge. However, if you want to design entirely new components outside the module library, you will require significant expertise, significantly increasing both design time and complexity.
Creating this kind of design system doesn't require advanced software skills. The biggest challenge lies in business integration. ------ The number of companies involved in this large-scale system could reach hundreds of thousands or even millions.

This philosophy and approach isn't exclusive to Chinese companies. Many Western companies also employ this approach. The difference is that in China, the application is broader and larger.
==========================
Chinese companies involved in fighter jet design and production, such as AVIC, AECC, and CETC, are all state-owned enterprises. Integrating them onto a common design platform is not difficult.
A CCTV interview mentioned that AVIC has developed a comprehensive set of aircraft design software.
Academician Yang Wei stated in the interview that "China has entered an era of freedom in modern fighter jet design."
In recent years, China has demonstrated a variety of advanced fighter jets (both manned and unmanned). Generally speaking, no country can launch so many new types of fighter jets in such a short period of time. If traditional design models are adopted, China does not have this capability.
==========================
So, on a technical level, designing a single-engine 5th-Gen fighter for Pakistan based on existing technology is a very, very simple thing. The average aircraft designer might only need a few days to complete their initial design plans.
However, once the initial design is complete, extensive design verification and testing are required. For example, scaled-down models are constructed for wind tunnel testing, electromagnetic/infrared signature testing, and structural stress testing. These tests are repeated numerous times, and the data feedback used to further refine the original design. A prototype is then manufactured. This is followed by another round of testing, data feedback, and design revisions... (The procedures for manned fighter jets are many times more rigorous than those for UAVs.)
These steps are standard procedures and present no significant technical challenges. However, these repeated tests, verifications, and revisions incur significant costs.

Please note:
This view assumes that all existing Chinese technologies and related modules will be used, without developing new ones(New materials, new mechanical structures, new subsystems, etc.).

This question can end here.

Michael - You don't read my posts properly. Scroll up to the post where I responded to you about Robotic manufacturing and my personal experience having seen it across 5 countries starting from back in late 90's.

I know modular design engineering. Parts and equipment are made in modules, 3-D printing tech is used at an industrial scale. That's how China is building it's aircraft carriers at such a fast pace. I used the aircraft carriers as an example because these are the LARGEST and HEAVIEST military machines yet put together like Lego blocks children play. That's massive achievement by the Chinese manufacturing. The engineering that covers manufacturing is called "process engineering" in the West.

The pulse manufacturing runs 24 hours a day, you supply it materials it finishes up the product. Average time to produce one J-20 is nearly 72-96 hours in China. From my understanding. F-35 has similar manufacturing also.

So I am fully aware of the manufacturing capabilities in China. That's also WHY I keep saying "We need our engineers trained on Chinese process engineering". I know we have people in Chengdu, etc, for JF-17, but I am talking about training in process engineering in terms of "manufacturing capability" industrial setup in Pakistan. We'll start with this and eventually can replicate this setup towards commercial manufacturing also.

Even after 20 years of JF-17's project, we still produce 26 or less unit annually with a portion still coming from China. Going to a 5th gen single engine model, we need more manufacturing capacity. That also applies on if we ever want to sell our JF-17 block III's in larger numbers, more manufacturing capacity is required.

So in Pakistan's context, we understand that big investment is needed to establish a manufacturing base to produce 5th gen tech even a level below China's. But, we need to invest into our nation, train our people in Chinese process engineering and build capability in Pakistan. We can learn and get help from Chinese expertise here.
 
... 2) Future strategic direction based on threat perception of Israel to us and to Turkey: This now includes Turkey and middle east also. So we'll make the Pakistani military interoperable with Turkey's. ...
Interoperability is no small feat.

Turkiye currently has military interoperability with other NATO members and Pakistan with China.

Emotions aside, Pakistan is not going to sacrifice itself for the GCC when GCC chose to build their strong economic relations with India at the cost of Pakistan.
 
Interoperability is no small feat.

Turkiye currently has military interoperability with other NATO members and Pakistan with China.

Emotions aside, Pakistan is not going to sacrifice itself for the GCC when GCC chose to build their strong economic relations with India at the cost of Pakistan.

Israel is a real threat to Turkey and Pakistan. GCC is all future and based on their own desire to establish mutual defense or not.

Turkiye's weapons don't communicate with China's. Absolutely not. Pakistan if ever gets Turkish weapons like aircrafts, will use T-link and link-17 in them to make them interoperable. There are no emotions into this discussion. There is ONLY Pakistan first and our needs that MUST be met.

personally, money aside, without any major tech. development breakthrough. I'd think twice, for asking Chinese help!

its better to stand on ones own feet!

this is not a video game, you provide me units, I will play for you!

defense does not come before dignity!

How did China get to where it's today? Ask yourself this question! Were they there just 35 years ago in 1990's? You'll find the answer.

And the "help" I am asking to get from China is common between all industrial nations. It's "Paid" help. Meaning you are paying for knowledge + equipment. Nothing in this world's for free. Don't you see a reluctance in Chinese members response when we talk about advance tech? So they did it for their country, we think it's time for us to have certain tech so that's our national objective and requirement. We'll pay for that help.

You either steal, do global espionage to gather latest technologies and create an assembly base to build them locally or you partner with a mature nation (aka, get help by paying)
 
Michael - You don't read my posts properly. Scroll up to the post where I responded to you about Robotic manufacturing and my personal experience having seen it across 5 countries starting from back in late 90's.

I know modular design engineering. Parts and equipment are made in modules, 3-D printing tech is used at an industrial scale. That's how China is building it's aircraft carriers at such a fast pace. I used the aircraft carriers as an example because these are the LARGEST and HEAVIEST military machines yet put together like Lego blocks children play. That's massive achievement by the Chinese manufacturing. The engineering that covers manufacturing is called "process engineering" in the West.

The pulse manufacturing runs 24 hours a day, you supply it materials it finishes up the product. Average time to produce one J-20 is nearly 72-96 hours in China. From my understanding. F-35 has similar manufacturing also.

So I am fully aware of the manufacturing capabilities in China. That's also WHY I keep saying "We need our engineers trained on Chinese process engineering". I know we have people in Chengdu, etc, for JF-17, but I am talking about training in process engineering in terms of "manufacturing capability" industrial setup in Pakistan. We'll start with this and eventually can replicate this setup towards commercial manufacturing also.

Even after 20 years of JF-17's project, we still produce 26 or less unit annually with a portion still coming from China. Going to a 5th gen single engine model, we need more manufacturing capacity. That also applies on if we ever want to sell our JF-17 block III's in larger numbers, more manufacturing capacity is required.

So in Pakistan's context, we understand that big investment is needed to establish a manufacturing base to produce 5th gen tech even a level below China's. But, we need to invest into our nation, train our people in Chinese process engineering and build capability in Pakistan. We can learn and get help from Chinese expertise here.
Why do you always steer the conversation in other directions instead of addressing the underlying issue?

My last post was in response to your question about "designing a single-engine, fifth-generation fighter jet for Pakistan is a very, very simple matter." I explained the origins and basis of this view.

Now you've brought up the topic of "Pakistan needs China's help."

China has been helping Pakistan improve its technological capabilities. We have trained a large number of high-level technical personnel for Pakistan and transferred numerous technologies to Pakistan.

However, Pakistan simply does not want to, or does not have the conditions to, start from the ground up.

A simple example:
One of the prerequisites for 100% local production of the JF-17 fuselage is Pakistan's ability to produce and process aviation aluminum alloys.
One of the prerequisites for aircraft aluminum alloy production is Pakistan's ability to produce electrolytic aluminum.
One of the prerequisites for electrolytic aluminum production is Pakistan's ability to have an abundant power supply.
A prerequisite for an abundant power supply is Pakistan's ability to have large, affordable power plants and an advanced power supply and management system.
Ultimately, it all comes back to Pakistan's fundamental problems: issues of government governance and integrity, public security, and public education......

This is a complex and interconnected process. If any one link is not met, the ultimate goal cannot be achieved. I don't want to criticize Pakistan. That's not a topic I can engage in. But, if Pakistan wants to develop at the same rapid pace as China, simply receiving technology and funding from China will be meaningless.
 
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