PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

vizier said:
Hq-9 if more maneuvrable than S300s that it was initially based on then yes they can offer value to protect airbases or nuclear sites as well as some anti ballistic missile protection which mid range systems cant offer. But indigeneous production of them is still difficult whereas medium range sams can be produced locally and can be used with higher effectiveness in shoot-scoot mode against planes similar to how Ukraine uses them against Russian planes which India employs as well.
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Bhai Ukraine mey kyu ghusey ho? In Ukraine due to its strategic depth there bulk of Medium to long range SAMs can be easily deployed 500km from front line, not even talking about Lyiv which is 900km+. For Pakistan all Medium-Long range AD has to be deployed in 100-250km range depth. Thats easily in range of ELINT ESM. While in Ukraine how do you detect a SAM battery deployed 500km+ away.
 
farooqbhai said:
Bhai Ukraine mey kyu ghusey ho? In Ukraine due to its strategic depth there bulk of Medium to long range SAMs can be easily deployed 500km from front line, not even talking about Lyiv which is 900km+. For Pakistan all Medium-Long range AD has to be deployed in 100-250km range depth. Thats easily in range of ELINT ESM. While in Ukraine how do you detect a SAM battery deployed 500km+ away.
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ukraine does not have sm-3 like 500km+ range sam systems. In east of dnipro Su-35 cannot enter but use only fabs-kabs on frontline positions. They field patriot buk and similar medium systems east of dnipro. But they move them frequently just like himars in scan-scoot mode. If Ukr installs ad close to border and stays there for several hours ofcourse Russia can easily hunt them by all means east of dnipro but we dont see them hunting although Ukr has virtually no airforce except several planes.
 
Rationalist said:
The problem with this is that Israel could guarantee it always has a qualitative edge over Arabs because of a very strong global lobbying influence.

We can't really guarantee a qualitative edge, India can source from Europe's best competitive equipment + US + homemade designs. It's got just too much funds. Even if we focus on a single service like air force you still won't have a clear dominance.
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err....i am sorry, but didn't this fallacy just bite the dust on May 7th?

Rafales were supposed to be that latest tech from Europe....got taken out by Temu PL15...

You see.....whatever latest Europe can produce, china can equal/better that at 3x times the production speed and at a 3 times less cost.....so as long as Chinese 'friends' are there......Pakistan can easily match if not exceed the Indian budget advantage.

Also, these Indians coping with the news that the government refrained the IAF from engaging military targets.....well lets call bullshit on that.....can you or anyone tell me what AA missile India has that can best out the PL15 range? Clearly, PL15s are not 145km range missiles......but no one knows exactly what the full range is...200km....300km...keep guessing just like IAF......so even if they had given the orders to shoot at PAF.......shoot with what? If PAF can shoot and scoot well outside your radar detection and AA missile range, the results would have been similar.

The only learning in this episode is that PAF had the entire air battle space to itself at that moment....it should have shot down more jets......as there would have been less of them to shoot ALCMs at you two days later.....knock out their Rafales and SU30mkis when you can....
 
vizier said:
ukraine does not have sm-3 like 500km+ range sam systems. In east of dnipro Su-35 cannot enter but use only fabs-kabs on frontline positions. They field patriot buk and similar medium systems east of dnipro. But they move them frequently just like himars in scan-scoot mode. If Ukr installs ad close to border and stays there for several hours ofcourse Russia can easily hunt them by all means east of dnipro but we dont see them hunting although Ukr has virtually no airforce except several planes.
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Patriot has a bigger footprint than S300 incl trailer based radars then how come it isn't destroyed? Perhaps the issue is with doctrine no? Rather than systems themselves
 
rafale said:
err....i am sorry, but didn't this fallacy just bite the dust on May 7th?

Rafales were supposed to be that latest tech from Europe....got taken out by Temu PL15...

You see.....whatever latest Europe can produce, china can equal/better that at 3x times the production speed and at a 3 times less cost.....so as long as Chinese 'friends' are there......Pakistan can easily match if not exceed the Indian budget advantage.

Also, these Indians coping with the news that the government refrained the IAF from engaging military targets.....well lets call bullshit on that.....can you or anyone tell me what AA missile India has that can best out the PL15 range? Clearly, PL15s are not 145km range missiles......but no one knows exactly what the full range is...200km....300km...keep guessing just like IAF......so even if they had given the orders to shoot at PAF.......shoot with what? If PAF can shoot and scoot well outside your radar detection and AA missile range, the results would have been similar.

The only learning in this episode is that PAF had the entire air battle space to itself at that moment....it should have shot down more jets......as there would have been less of them to shoot ALCMs at you two days later.....knock out their Rafales and SU30mkis when you can....
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No, it didn't.

Rafale in raw specs still is a more capable piece of equipment and the Meteor is not a joke. We did well because we tactically employed our aircraft in a more intelligent manner with greater systems fusion.

This is  not equivalent to Israel's raw qualitative edge by a decent margin in aircraft generation and BVR missile generation. It has the full capacity to be able to prevent its enemies from acquiring weapons that truly threaten it.
 
farooqbhai said:
Patriot has a bigger footprint than S300 incl trailer based radars then how come it isn't destroyed? Perhaps the issue is with doctrine no? Rather than systems themselves
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Patriot is possibly used deeper in western Ukriane and in eastern parts closer to Dnipro far from frontlines having 150+km range and moved less. They somehow managed to move it frequent enough to not to be targeted by Russians and I think it is a doctrine issue considering Russia has spy sat network and sufficient elint capability. Patriot system can also be used as an early warning radar for longer ranges. whereas Buk and others like Nasams, Iris-T more closer to frontline and moved more frequently.
 
It would be interesting to develop a SAM system that is integrated into the PAF networked kill chain. Imagine a two stage SAM, fist booster stage takes it to say 40kft, around Mach 2, and the second stage is effectively a dual pulse large A2A missile, which can be guided by AWACs, ground based data link, or even another fighter. Could be looking at a SAM system with significant range, integrated into the networked kill chain. Historically SAM missiles have been developed as ground launched anti air missiles, but if they are designed as ground launched A2A missiles instead, with the booster section effectively working as rapid means to place that A2A missile at a favourable position with high energy, that opens up a whole new way to design SAM systems.
 
Rationalist said:
No, it didn't.

Rafale in raw specs still is a more capable piece of equipment and the Meteor is not a joke. We did well because we tactically employed our aircraft in a more intelligent manner with greater systems fusion.

This is  not equivalent to Israel's raw qualitative edge by a decent margin in aircraft generation and BVR missile generation. It has the full capacity to be able to prevent its enemies from acquiring weapons that truly threaten it.
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Rafale can't fight alone in the battlefield that is superior...

Rafale is a 1980-90s jet...it was developed when soviet and post soviet threats were considered, not the well into beyond 2000s battle space that has rapidly changed with the advent of advances in AESA radars and long range AA missiles.

SPECTRA while good, seems good only on paper. it is not the vedic protection bubble that IAF thought it was. It is minced meat when going against a well coordinated air space. Just like any other jet. So if Rafale cannot fight and fly alone, then what's the point of having it? It is excellent jet, just like the AVM himself mentioned, but it is also overhyped.

In 20 years of service, the best kills Rafale had were some outdated incompetent airforces and ground targets in middle east.....

Anyway, don't want a long drawn out debate. But anyone underestimating China and its rise is just living in a fools paradise. Europe isn't even a threat anymore and soon the USA.

China can start Taiwan adventure today and there is absolutely nothing USA can do. Zilch.

For once, Pakistan's bet on China is proving its worth. PL15s were the game changer and not meteors on May7th........and very very hard to believe that none of the dozen or so Rafales up in the air were carrying them....and if IAF thought that MICA would be enough, then literally they are the dumbest people on the planet.
 
rafale said:
Rafale can't fight alone in the battlefield that is superior...

Rafale is a 1980-90s jet...it was developed when soviet and post soviet threats were considered, not the well into beyond 2000s battle space that has rapidly changed with the advent of advances in AESA radars and long range AA missiles.

SPECTRA while good, seems good only on paper. it is not the vedic protection bubble that IAF thought it was. It is minced meat when going against a well coordinated air space. Just like any other jet. So if Rafale cannot fight and fly alone, then what's the point of having it? It is excellent jet, just like the AVM himself mentioned, but it is also overhyped.

In 20 years of service, the best kills Rafale had were some outdated incompetent airforces and ground targets in middle east.....

Anyway, don't want a long drawn out debate. But anyone underestimating China and its rise is just living in a fools paradise. Europe isn't even a threat anymore and soon the USA.

China can start Taiwan adventure today and there is absolutely nothing USA can do. Zilch.

For once, Pakistan's bet on China is proving its worth. PL15s were the game changer and not meteors on May7th........and very very hard to believe that none of the dozen or so Rafales up in the air were carrying them....and if IAF thought that MICA would be enough, then literally they are the dumbest people on the planet.
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You're missing the original point of the discussion by a long mark. None of what you've mentioned was spoken about or challenged. It was about Israel having a far more decisive edge over its opponents per platform, than Pakistan will be able to have over India.

The Rafal is a capable airframe with capable avionics, the Metero is also capable — both are in the same class as J-10Cs. There may be a slight edge but it's not massively decisive like how Israel has had.
 
Rationalist said:
No, it didn't.

Rafale in raw specs still is a more capable piece of equipment and the Meteor is not a joke. We did well because we tactically employed our aircraft in a more intelligent manner with greater systems fusion.

This is  not equivalent to Israel's raw qualitative edge by a decent margin in aircraft generation and BVR missile generation. It has the full capacity to be able to prevent its enemies from acquiring weapons that truly threaten it.
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There's a talk around Indian OSINT space that Meteor hasn't been delivered to IAF
 
similar scenario for point defence.

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According to AVM Aurangzaib, one of the kills on the night of 7th May was from a HIMAD, any speculation what aircraft was hit by the HQ-9?
 
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